https://womenfriendlygolfcourse.com/

[Niall C]

Niall,


Sometimes having a voice means knowing when to use it and when to not.


I feel Nicholas's website is something that shouldn't come from a male perspective.


It's made even tougher if this is a branding play to brand yourself as a female focused architect. When there are great female architects. If you are playing that game we as young male architects are starting from a step behind in that space.


Not saying we can't or shouldn't design for all players. But if we are talking about Women's friendly golf, I can't really talk about it as a non woman because there are lots of things that as a man I don't experience.


Like notice how Christine talks about bathrooms a lot in her interviews with men. It's because that's a simple example that men often ignore when talking about a female experience in golf.


This whole thread has been men talking about their experiences and not one other than myself has probably engaged with this issue enough to understand. It reeks of male privilege to impose ideas onto the women's game without holding space for and opening comment to women.


If this thread was about designing or building courses for men or women. The gender of the architects shouldn't really matter as Christine and Angela have pointed out numerous times. But this thread isn't about that.


This thread is about a man imposing as system for rating courses friendliness to women. Which is completely overstepping. I was hesitant to comment because in doing so I bump the thread and bring light to this dumb idea. If he had female cofounders or other directors maybe but even then. This isn't our space as men to talk.


If we want to build better courses for more people we have to open our minds and listen. Speaking isn't the most important skill in architecture,  Listening is.

Ben


It's too late in the evening to try and respond point by point but there's a lot in your post which I think should be challenged. Unless I'm mistaken the basic idea that you seem to have that men aren't qualified to design a course for women, presumably on the basis that men gca's don't play like your average woman and therefore don't have their perspective. If you followed that logic then Dr MacKenzie (9 handicap) was wasting his time designing a course that would be used every year for one of the men's majors, and that the likes of Tom Doak (also about a 9 hcp I believe) and Robin Hiseman (6 or 7 hcp ?) had no business designing courses that used by the professional tours. And yet they did, very successfully. I'd suggest they were able to do so, not by being able to play like a top professional, but by observing how top professionals played and by using their skill as gca's.


In terms of Nicholas's accreditation idea I also dislike it but not because Nicolas is overstepping. He has every right to promote his ideas and I don't see them being any less valid because he's a man. He doesn't need a female cofounder (?) to validate those ideas. Those ideas should be considered on there own merit rather than on who is presenting them.


Niall


ps. in terms of your comments in post #41, I'd refer you back to post #17 for design ideas other than length.


 

[Charlie Goerges]

When I was a teen, the manager of the course I worked at was an older lady who basically fit the description. A 380-yard par 5 was a Driver, 5-wood, 5-wood, iron for her when hitting it well.

If her 5W goes 120… at some point, you kinda end up drawing a line. She could have played from wherever she wanted - expecting to have tees at… 3000 yards so she can get close to her 5I x 36 yardage… The courses that do have those just put tee markers in the fairway.

I have a wife and a daughter (albeit a daughter who is a +1), so I'm in support of better playing conditions for women (and juniors), but I don't think you can fully accommodate everyone with the full experience. What do you do if a 75-year-old woman only hits her high-lofted driver 85 yards?

Yes, I agree that where to draw that line isn’t a simple decision, but I think it can be redrawn somewhat shorter in many cases. I don’t know exactly what the line should be, hopefully a forum like this would be a place to discuss it. I think we do ok accommodating men who are X% shorter than average, we should probably also accommodate women who are X% shorter than the average woman.

[Daryl David]

Using the 36x5-iron basis that’s been mentioned herein a few times over the years then 18-holes totalling 4,600 yds gives a 5-iron distance of 128 yds.
Be interesting to know what proportion of 28 hcp women carry their 5-iron this far?
Atb

How many 28 Hcp women even carry a 5 iron?  Have they even seen one? Shoot, I’m a 5 and I don’t carry one.

[Keith Phillips]

Nicolas, I commend you for taking on this interesting and challenging topic.  I'm a mid-teens handicap male golfer approaching seniors privileges.  My carry distance has fallen fast from ~240 yards to 210 and I fear lower numbers in my future.  I have lady friends whose driver carry distances 'may' be 100 yards but may be less.  There are 1000s of such golfers in Florida, maybe 10s or 1000s...and the game must be hard enough to many to call it quits.  Not sure how you build a course for the flat bellies and the senior citizens, but it's a worthy topic.

[Chris Hughes]

'It's Absolutely Insane That Many Golf Clubs Still Limit When Women Can Play' - Why Clubs MUST Start Walking The Walk When It Comes To Equality

Matt,

What a massive pile of steaming bovine dung that article constitutes... ‍♂️

At legitimate private clubs it isn't a gender issue...

...it's a member vs. dependent issue. 

The vast majority of clubs allow new joiners (assumes a family) to designate who is the "member", and the rest of the family are by default dependents (with some tee-time restrictions).

Chris, we've butted heads before, and I will do my best to be polite here. You suggest this is about spouses, and not women. Had you perused this article (I did provide five in total) you would know that it's largely based on this other article:

Why I Gave Up Golf: One Woman's Story About Male-Dominated Club Life: In conversation with a former single-figure female golfer, Alison Root finds out why she left the sport she loved

Here are some relevant quotes:

Today, there are still a great number of clubs that have restricted access for women to play at weekends, and for any businesswoman that pays the same fees as a man, this is totally unfair. Men will argue that women have the tee reserved on a specific day during the week, but that’s no use to modern-day women who are busy working. This is an all-too-common problem that narrows the appeal of golf to a large percentage of the younger female population.   

Reverting back to my conversation with the woman that golf has lost, and as a ‘business lady’ member myself for the most part of my golfing life, I can relate to her comments that led her to hang up her clubs. During one summer, she counted 17 weekend days when the course was closed to women due to men’s competitions, but that’s not all.   

At the time, it was generally just her and a couple of other high handicappers playing at the weekend, and as a single-figure golfer, it was frustrating for her when she had to watch several shots being played before reaching her drive. She asked if she could mix in and play with a men’s group, but she received a categoric ‘NO’. As she was in the minority, without the full support of the older demographic of lady members, who were content with their playing rights and not interested in playing with men, she was fighting a losing battle.

Again, if you want to pretend this is an issue of wives of have husbands who are members, I would say that you really should re-evaluate your priors when it comes to equal access to clubs. Some still don't even allow women to be members.

You say it isn't an issue "at legitimate private clubs" yet, as I like to remind this forum, repeatedly, Pine Valley had to settle with the state of New Jersey, effectively admitting guilt, for illegally discriminating against women literally last year. So if you're going to present a No true Scotsman fallacy to defend a frequently discriminatory club model, then I would suggest you again reevaluate your priors. Unfortunately, there are plenty of clubs that do discriminate against women, even clubs that this group seems to fawn over.

Matt, those articles, and the highlighted quotes, are complete BS.


Away from that, you're indicting the entire industry based on a minuscule number of true outliers.


Matt, have you ever served on a committee or the Board of a legitimate private club that has a golf course?

[Chris Hughes]

There is no perfect solution . I am just proposing what I think is " more  playability " for women .
Shorter courses will benefit kids too !

If GCA's choose to factor in this sort of thinking for new designs, awesome.


That said, quote here from one of the ludicrous articles linked by Matt:


>>  Sharon Eales says, “When it comes to equality people rarely refer to the, frankly, diabolical neglect of women in terms of the golf course itself. Most courses only offer a one size fits all tee box, which is suitable for scratch females only, i.e. those hitting 210 yards off the tee. The majority of female players hit it 150 yards or less.”

When using TopTracer, the women I coach can hit an excellent drive from the shortest tees at Pebble Beach and not even make the fairway, we end up aiming for the cart path! <<



So the venerable Pebble Beach should do a bunch of new course construction to accommodate ladies who can't carry it 150yds based on the opinion of some driving range pro halfway around the world?  This sort of thinking is insane, pure madness...


Lots of courses/clubs have "kids tees" which are nothing more than a plate placed a good distance out in the fairway -- Sharon and her students should feel free to tee the ball up as far forward, in the fairway, as they like and will make them comfortable.  Problem solved... 

[Matt Schoolfield]

Matt, those articles, and the highlighted quotes, are complete BS.

I've provide you with six different articles, many from extremely reputable sources. Each makes verifiable claims, and each uses named sources. This type of response is unhelpful and is, honestly, pretty lazy. If you want to engage in the conversation, I'm happy to hear why I'm wrong, but you need to present an argument. Just repeating that you think something is bullshit isn't an argument. It's a waste of time.

legitimate private club

And you again double down on a No True Scotsman formulation to defend a position that very clearly has verifiable exceptions.

[Chris Hughes]

Matt, those articles, and the highlighted quotes, are complete BS.

I've provide you with six different articles, many from extremely reputable sources. Each makes verifiable claims, and each uses named sources. This type of response is unhelpful and is, honestly, pretty lazy. If you want to engage in the conversation, I'm happy to hear why I'm wrong, but you need to present an argument. Just repeating that you think something is bullshit isn't an argument. It's a waste of time.

Let's go through them one-by-one and I will explain the reality of the situation. 


Let's start with the lady who was better than the high handicap women and wanted to join the men.  Provide the name of the club, who actually denied her (the pro?  the men?), the genesis of the group she wanted to join, how long had the lady been a member, anything else you feel relevant.


You really think an article from the LA Times 31 years ago (Jan. 6, 1994) constitutes a "reputable source"?  That is funny!! 


I ask you again, have you ever served on a committee or the Board of a legitimate private club that has a golf course?

[Phil Young]

Without being judgemental as to who is correct in their position on this topic, I think that it is important to recognize that there actually are some clubs where women are EQUAL to the male members. A good example of one is Southward Ho Country Club on Long Island. It's golf course was designed by Tillinghast so that immediately tells you it has a good lineage. An example of how equal the club is when it comes to male and female members, they had a female member who served on the Board for about 5-6 years as the CHAIRMAN (ironic title) of the Green Committee. In fact, she had wanted to move on to another committee, but the board recognized that her work as Chairman of the Green Committee was so good, that they kept convincing her that she was the BEST person for the job and the club needed her to continue in that capacity. She would finally step down from that position when she became PRESIDENT of the Club.
      During her tenure she oversaw the restorative renovation of the golf course, not only making certain that the work done was true to the original Tillinghast design, but that all members, regardless of age or gender. would be able to play the course within their own limitations and still enjoy it. She is but one of a number of similar examples of women members at clubs who have served on both Green Committees and Boards and had a great deal of input into how the course best served the needs of all who played there of whom I know.

[Chris Hughes]

Without being judgemental as to who is correct in their position on this topic, I think that it is important to recognize that there actually are some clubs where women are EQUAL to the male members. A good example of one is Southward Ho Country Club on Long Island. It's golf course was designed by Tillinghast so that immediately tells you it has a good lineage. An example of how equal the club is when it comes to male and female members, they had a female member who served on the Board for about 5-6 years as the CHAIRMAN (ironic title) of the Green Committee. In fact, she had wanted to move on to another committee, but the board recognized that her work as Chairman of the Green Committee was so good, that they kept convincing her that she was the BEST person for the job and the club needed her to continue in that capacity. She would finally step down from that position when she became PRESIDENT of the Club.

During her tenure she oversaw the restorative renovation of the golf course, not only making certain that the work done was true to the original Tillinghast design, but that all members, regardless of age or gender. would be able to play the course within their own limitations and still enjoy it. She is but one of a number of similar examples of women members at clubs who have served on both Green Committees and Boards and had a great deal of input into how the course best served the needs of all who played there of whom I know.

At legitimate private clubs that have a golf course, women serving in club governance as a committee or Board member is in no way rare, in fact I'd argue it's the norm at the majority of said clubs.