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John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #100 on: December 25, 2024, 03:50:20 AM »
David,

I bow to your superior knowledge of the course and your avoidance of the rough.
My experience of Golspie and Royal Dornoch is intermittent over a 40 year stretch and having a friend who is a member of RD has given me the opportunity to play it about 20 times. The first time I played in the 80's in April I remember a wispy rough and the undulations outside the fairway being clearly visible.
I also remember a period in the 2010's where the rough was thick and nasty.


In fairness when I played a couple of times last year 2023  in October the rough had been dramatically cut back.


From my own experience generally the condition of the rough is dependent, not only on the time of year and the amount of rain, but also on ecological restrictions during part of the year to protect bird nesting and plant seed reproduction, usually till the end of July.
Then comes maintenance practices when low man power and machines can restrict the greenkeeper team from controlling the rough. Not a problem for RD any more.


I'll look forward to visiting the highlands 2025 and if you are around it would be fun to compare notes on the conditions of the rough, particularly Brora, and their impact on our hearts.


Cheers
John


Chris Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #101 on: December 27, 2024, 01:31:38 AM »
The membership vote raises an interesting question.
Who is actually entitled to vote under a Clubs constitution?
Atb
Good question.  Can't answer it per se, but press reports indicate last the time this issue was broached (circa 2000), and a "successful" vote was secured... the decision was set aside when it was learned that not all eligible members had been personally notified, as the club constitution requires."

The 21 crofters involved had already rejected a £60K offer and after the Brora internal voting irregularities were uncovered, the movement appears to have collapsed upon itself.

24-years later, and one large crowd-sourced cash infusion later, the issue has bubbled to the surface again.


If I’d paid a pretty penny for one of those lifetime(?) memberships, I assume I’d be annoyed, but perhaps I misunderstand the situation.
Matt, I do agree it's a unique situation where a course is near collapse and in such a short time later is seemingly in an excellent financial situation but have to believe those who joined are quite happy. 

I don't care if there is grazing on the course.  What I do care about is the cost to play.  My first overseas golf trip about 10 years ago consisted of 60+ rounds in 30 days.  Brora was £55 and it's now £160.  A trip like that would be tough for a recent grad on a budget to replicate...even with my increased budget it'd be tough for me to replicate that trip.

Joe,

£160 now headed for £300??  (if the "plan" comes to fruition)

Unexpected good fortune has availed the club of a big whiff of the devil's ether and as Barlow & Weir wrote --  "too much of everything is just enough"...

...they are now flush and ready to stroke a $191,000 check to cover "legal fees and compensation to farmers" for breaking the grazing contract.

A few snippets:

"Ending those grazing rights would...allow the club to enhance the course and ultimately boost revenue."

"...visitors from North America will pay top dollar to walk the rumpled fairways of premium courses..."

"For many venues, the equation is simple. One US tourist will pay more for 18 holes - and will probably hire a caddie — than a local member playing with three guests."

“If we were successful in removing them (cows mooo & sheep baaa), I believe we would be able to improve turf quality and the golfer’s experience, move up the rankings and be judged as a golf course rather than a field.”             (shoot me :-[ )

45-47 would be proud.




PS... apparently a "flerd" and their associated forage does offer some real environmental benefits and "increases soil aggregation, enhances soil structure, and allows for better water-holding capacity and nutrient exchange. Grazing also contributes soil organic matter and rumen microbes to the soil that help to increase biodiversity, buffer soil temperature, escalate nutrient cycling, and minimize soil compaction and disturbance" --- film at 11p.



« Last Edit: December 27, 2024, 08:31:58 AM by Chris Hughes »
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #102 on: December 28, 2024, 02:54:49 PM »

£160 now headed for £300??  (if the "plan" comes to fruition)



I can tell I'm getting old as I look at the past with fondness.


I'm also a bit of a hypocrite because I really do admire the UK model where clubs permit visitors at higher fees allowing local members pay less.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #103 on: December 28, 2024, 03:44:20 PM »

£160 now headed for £300??  (if the "plan" comes to fruition)



I can tell I'm getting old as I look at the past with fondness.


I'm also a bit of a hypocrite because I really do admire the UK model where clubs permit visitors at higher fees allowing local members pay less.


I was thinking similar when you wrote about the £55. We aren’t Doolies anymore that’s for sure. I also think Chris’ hypothesis about £300 (that’s above Dornoch) is pretty ridiculous but it’s a rhetorical device, I get it.


I texted a buddy and said “the days of stumbling up to a Doak 7 for fifty quid is long gone.” It isn’t just Brora. Check out what they want for Western Gailes, or Gullane 1, or Panmure, just to name a few.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #104 on: December 28, 2024, 06:21:08 PM »

£160 now headed for £300??  (if the "plan" comes to fruition)



I can tell I'm getting old as I look at the past with fondness.


I'm also a bit of a hypocrite because I really do admire the UK model where clubs permit visitors at higher fees allowing local members pay less.


Joe,


The idea of charging different visitor fees depending on where you come from is actually relatively new and the first place to do it in Scotland as far as I am aware was Kingsbarns or perhaps Castle Stuart. It is only the last few years that members clubs started doing that as well.


Niall

Simon Barrington

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #105 on: December 28, 2024, 06:49:26 PM »
Joe,
The idea of charging different visitor fees depending on where you come from is actually relatively new and the first place to do it in Scotland as far as I am aware was Kingsbarns or perhaps Castle Stuart. It is only the last few years that members clubs started doing that as well.
Niall
So am I reading this correctly that a sensible PR discount to introduce local fees for local golfers at highly expensive new resort courses (i.e. a drop in fees) has now morphed into how can we charge/exploit overseas visitors more (with higher fees)...unintended consequences ...

Chris Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #106 on: December 28, 2024, 06:56:14 PM »
Joe,
The idea of charging different visitor fees depending on where you come from is actually relatively new and the first place to do it in Scotland as far as I am aware was Kingsbarns or perhaps Castle Stuart. It is only the last few years that members clubs started doing that as well.
Niall
So am I reading this correctly that a sensible PR discount to introduce local fees for local golfers at highly expensive new resort courses (i.e. a drop in fees) has now morphed into how can we charge/exploit overseas visitors more (with higher fees) ...unintended consequences ...

👆👆👆


Spot on... 🤙

« Last Edit: December 28, 2024, 06:59:01 PM by Chris Hughes »
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #107 on: December 28, 2024, 07:20:47 PM »
Simon


The clubs are just doing what the (US owned) high end pay and play courses were doing and for the same reason ie. to maximise revenue. There's been no change in that from what I can see.


On the Braid thread I think it was you who posted a link to youtuber at Perranporth going round the course with the head greenkeeper, the club manager, a golf consultant and the retained gca. It was fascinating to watch the dynamics. The head greenkeeper was focused on what could be done to make his job easier and the club manager was the one making all the suggestions as to what should be done to make the course "better". The gca seemed to me to be largely just taking note and advising how the changes could be accomplished. The point of the golf consultant, as far as I could tell, was to sell the club managers proposed changes to the members. It struck me that if the members were the ones instigating the changes then there would be no need for the golf consultant.


How that dynamic compares to Brora, I really don't know but I do suspect that the interests of the club manager (more revenue), head greenkeeper (making his job easier) and the members (better playing surfaces) are fully aligned in wanting to remove the livestock.


Niall

Simon Barrington

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #108 on: December 29, 2024, 04:02:25 AM »
Simon
The clubs are just doing what the (US owned) high end pay and play courses were doing and for the same reason ie. to maximise revenue. There's been no change in that from what I can see.

On the Braid thread I think it was you who posted a link to youtuber at Perranporth going round the course with the head greenkeeper, the club manager, a golf consultant and the retained gca. It was fascinating to watch the dynamics. The head greenkeeper was focused on what could be done to make his job easier and the club manager was the one making all the suggestions as to what should be done to make the course "better". The gca seemed to me to be largely just taking note and advising how the changes could be accomplished. The point of the golf consultant, as far as I could tell, was to sell the club managers proposed changes to the members. It struck me that if the members were the ones instigating the changes then there would be no need for the golf consultant.

How that dynamic compares to Brora, I really don't know but I do suspect that the interests of the club manager (more revenue), head greenkeeper (making his job easier) and the members (better playing surfaces) are fully aligned in wanting to remove the livestock.

Niall
Hi Niall

On the first point there is a nuance here, as the local vs. non-local distinction started back on the opening of Loch Lomond (in 1993) at the virtual insistance of the SGU, in order for some limited access to Scottish non-members. The PR of course was to allow LL to get SGU and other higher events for its desired standing. At one point these SGU times were limited to only 12 golfers a day and there was a lottery for SGU members.

The repeat of this "requirement" at places like Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Dumbarnie, Renaissance etc. does not maximise their revenue, as they can fill their busy tee-sheet very easily with higher non-local (including those resident in GB&I, but not in Scotland) fees in their shorter playing seasons. It's a cost of doing business with the local governing body (acting obh of golfers locally)

The irony is that the distinction (and considerable £ difference in fees) has now been flipped at other venues which were always open to (non-local) visitors, but as a way of increasing/exploiting revenue from those same visitors. There will be another cycle where these visitors may stop coming (as economic cycles recur, and unpredictable geopolitical events happen) and these clubs may really struggle if this source (& quantum) of revenue has been embedded into overhead and running costs.

Such "windfalls" should be carefully stewarded as such, to build reserves and/or invest in projects that lower on-going costs.

Sadly seeing too many "vanity" projects that don't do either (wide grass irrigated paths, over-specified fancy pastiche bunker rebuilds etc.) and these sometimes damage the course architecture and aesthetic.

To get back onto the thread topic (but, without re-opening the argument which has already been lost, by dint of the members) the Course Manager claims they can maintain the roughs as well as the sheep (and his testing areas have shown this)...but what is the embedded on-going cost for scaling this up across an entire course/site? I trust this key point of information was shared with the membership...


Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #109 on: December 29, 2024, 05:29:37 PM »
By my count there are approximately 50 courses in GB&I which are still grazed by sheep or cattle or horses or goats or a combination of them. And long may this continue.
Incidentally, I believe TOC at St Andrews was grazed by sheep until 1946. Be nice if it still was.
Be a nice and very visual way of highlighting to the anti-golf brigade, politicians, statutory authorities and society in general that golf, nature and the environment can co-exist and can do so in a harmonious manner.
And golf needs all the help it can get to preserve itself on a finite sized planet with an ever growing and more demanding population yet a planet with limited land and water etc resources.
Atb

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #110 on: December 29, 2024, 06:25:13 PM »
David


The sheep were removed from TOC before WWI (1911 I think). I have a copy letter from the secretary of the R&A which was circulated to a number of clubs in 1924 which sought advice from clubs who had, or had previously, sheep on their course as the Green Committee were considering whether to put sheep back on. I'm fairly certain that they ultimately decided against it.


If there was sheep on TOC c.1946/47 then I strongly suspect it was a hangover from WWII when labour and petrol for tractors would have been in short supply, and perhaps also to help with food production. I doubt they lasted for long and that when things got back to normal they were taken off.


Niall