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David_Tepper

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Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« on: July 19, 2024, 05:47:43 PM »
It looks like most of the gorse is on holes 10-11-12 and very much in play in a cross-wind.


Having become a little too familiar with gorse by playing along side of it over the past 20 years, I am not a fan. It seems that many who are willing to criticize fairways in Florida lined with water hazards see little, if any, problem with gorse-lined fairways. To me, the latter is far worse. At least relief from a red-staked hazard is a drop at the point of entry. A ball lost in the gorse is stroke & distance, same as out of bounds.

Does anyone know if Troon has made an effort to clear out or reduce the amount of gorse on the course over the years?       

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2024, 06:31:49 PM »
It looks like most of the gorse is on holes 10-11-12 and very much in play in a cross-wind.


Having become a little too familiar with gorse by playing along side of it over the past 20 years, I am not a fan. It seems that many who are willing to criticize fairways in Florida lined with water hazards see little, if any, problem with gorse-lined fairways. To me, the latter is far worse. At least relief from a red-staked hazard is a drop at the point of entry. A ball lost in the gorse is stroke & distance, same as out of bounds.

Does anyone know if Troon has made an effort to clear out or reduce the amount of gorse on the course over the years?       
Nobody is making them hit driver in these winds. If I'm playing that course in high winds, I'm hitting a knockdown iron off the tee.

Wind is the only defense against the high launch angles on modern clubs. We're seeing the links' main defense against the bomb and gouge era on full display, and I think it's fantastic.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2024, 07:40:01 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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David_Tepper

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2024, 06:58:08 PM »
Matt -

I am not saying wayward shots should not be punished. I am asking if a lost ball in the gorse is the proper punishment. Seems to me the tall fescue rough is doing a very good job of punishing poor shots. At least fescue provides provides an opportunity to hit recovery shots and maybe save par or bogey. A tee shot lost in a gorse bush is almost always an automatic double-bogey or worse.

I wonder how many balls the members lose in the gorse each week? :)

DT   

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2024, 07:55:39 PM »
It looks like most of the gorse is on holes 10-11-12 and very much in play in a cross-wind.


Having become a little too familiar with gorse by playing along side of it over the past 20 years, I am not a fan. It seems that many who are willing to criticize fairways in Florida lined with water hazards see little, if any, problem with gorse-lined fairways. To me, the latter is far worse. At least relief from a red-staked hazard is a drop at the point of entry. A ball lost in the gorse is stroke & distance, same as out of bounds.

Does anyone know if Troon has made an effort to clear out or reduce the amount of gorse on the course over the years?       
David, I definitely hear you, pro golf analysis is definitely not my strong suit, but the way that hazards function in assessing different levels of penalty is something I'm keenly interested in.

On 10, playing at pro distances, playing way left should take them out of play, and the fairway is wide at 245 from the back tees.

11 also allows much more room if they lay up to about 230, instead of taking on the pinch point between the gorse and the train.

12 definitely seems the most difficult, and pinches right at 280, but there is less bail out short of there.

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but this seems like exactly the time when the pros ought to be willing to settle for bogey-bogey-bogey when the winds up to keep their scores in check. That's not how the swing-for-the-fences era typically rewards players, which is why I think we've seen so much damage along in that corridor.
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Sean_A

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2024, 02:07:57 AM »
I am definitely not a fan of large banks of gorse. That said, I can see the value of one or two holes featuring the evil weed…pure execution holes for championship golf. The real issue is controlling the stuff…it can spread and grow quickly. It’s a bit like heather. If controlled and featured judiciously it’s fine. But it’s generally best to allow plenty of space to accommodate heather and gorse.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom Hooker

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2024, 06:50:28 AM »
11 at Troon is interesting to compare to 16 TOC in this way. 16 is a better hole in just about every way imaginable because the green complex really does punish the left bailout on its own (assuming there's any wind), whereas 11 is only interesting as the scariest tee shot maybe in the world if the left bailout isn't available. It's a boundary hole without a ton of defense around the green aside from one pot bunker and the boundary right. Broken record, but if equipment wasn't what it is, replacing that gorse with the original fescue would make it a more interesting par 4.5 where the left bailout is punished mostly by the distance to the green.


Right now, doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of strategy involved in that tee shot for the pros except yes, execute and pray you don't get a bad bounce left.



Would be curious if anyone could share more about the history/evolution of the hole beyond the addition of the gorse. There are member tees (why! when?) left of 10 green that present an extremely difficult tee shot without a lot of the strategy of the tees along the railway, especially in the prevailing cross/headwind.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2024, 10:38:19 AM »
Can be convenient if caught short on the course. Best not get too close though!
:):):)
Atb

Carl Johnson

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2024, 11:02:36 AM »
It looks like most of the gorse is on holes 10-11-12 and very much in play in a cross-wind.


Having become a little too familiar with gorse by playing along side of it over the past 20 years, I am not a fan. It seems that many who are willing to criticize fairways in Florida lined with water hazards see little, if any, problem with gorse-lined fairways. To me, the latter is far worse. At least relief from a red-staked hazard is a drop at the point of entry. A ball lost in the gorse is stroke & distance, same as out of bounds.

Does anyone know if Troon has made an effort to clear out or reduce the amount of gorse on the course over the years?       


I've equated gorse with water, worse as David says.  Why not stake it as a penalty area, at least for recreational play?

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2024, 11:07:33 AM »
The answer to the original question is No.


There is no gorse at Troon other than on 9, 10, 11 & 12 (which are 4 of the most celebrated on the course).


11 is the only truly penal hole, a real brute. The others have plenty of space if you look for it.


It brings a different dimension and character to that corner.

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2024, 08:02:53 PM »
The tall fescue is between the fairway and gorse at Troon. The further you get away from the fairway the sterner the penalty.
The premise of the opening port supposes stroke play. I assume most of the time they are at match play.


Royal Troon today seems much easier than the 1999 version of Bandon Dunes
[size=78%]  [/size]

Garland Bayley

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2024, 09:55:52 PM »
The tall fescue is between the fairway and gorse at Troon. The further you get away from the fairway the sterner the penalty.
The premise of the opening port supposes stroke play. I assume most of the time they are at match play.


Royal Troon today seems much easier than the 1999 version of Bandon Dunes
[size=78%]  [/size]
Speaking of Bandon, I have twice suffered 5 balls lost to gorse at Pacific Dunes. Perhaps 1/3 of my rounds there. None lost at Old MacDonald. Any wonder I prefer OM!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Thomas Dai

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2024, 03:28:18 AM »
I like gorse. Needs to be kept in check but its evergreen, frames things nicely, shots can if not too close and unlike trees usually be hit over it and its a great place to find ProV1's! :)
atb

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2024, 07:19:58 AM »
The coconut scent when it’s in full bloom is marvellous. I can’t smell anything coconutty without thinking of links golf.
But, agreed it should be employed very judiciously - and principally in out-of-play areas.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Niall C

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2024, 08:59:28 AM »
I wouldn't compare gorse to heather. Generally speaking you can't recover out of gorse and neither is heather as invasive. I don't know any course that really "uses" gorse as such, they just generally have it and occasionally have to blooter it.


With regards Troon, I have a vivid memory of standing on the left side of the fairway on 11th hole on the last day of 1982 Open watching Watson playing an approach shot (some sort of iron) to about 5 feet. He sank the putt for an eagle as the hole was a par 5 back then. I'd gauge he was playing from the general area where most of the players were playing their second shots this time round and I think I'm right in saying that spectators were restricted due to the gorse.


I also recall playing Troon with a committee man before the 2016 Open and he showed me how further up on the left a whole swathe of gorse had been taken out over the winter and you could already see where it was beginning to come back again. As a bit of an aside, anyone notice the mound/dune/bank behind the 10th green ? This time round it was covered in grass but pretty sure in 2016 it was a sea of gorse. It wouldn't surprise me if next time the gorse is back.


Niall

David_Tepper

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Re: Is There Too Much Gorse In Play At Royal Troon? New
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2024, 08:47:27 AM »
Geoff Shackelford comments on the gorse:

Gorse On The Railway. Significant gorse at Royal Troon is found at the 9th through 12th holes. When the wind blows it becomes pretty cool and seems beneath a course filled with strategy and well-placed bunkers. The menacing stuff makes it hard to see the 11th fairway from the tee and confusion meant players hit a lot of unnecessary provisionals. The gorse surely scoops up member golf balls even more and does little to enhance the course. Nothing a good wildfire couldn’t fix. If gorse has to remain the centerpiece at 11, keep the stuff on the left and increase some visibility from the tee of the fairway.


https://quadrilateral.substack.com/p/cutmakers-from-the-152nd-open
« Last Edit: July 25, 2024, 09:20:18 AM by David_Tepper »

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