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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cadence
« on: June 26, 2024, 12:31:27 PM »
During the Open, I considered cadence on golf courses. There are a few ways to approach it. One way, of course, is to see the cadence of par. As I watched the Open at #2, I considered difficulty against par from the white tees for me, with 8 and 16 as par fives. I scored it this way: one is the easiest, and ten is the most difficult. This is how it plays for me. The toughest stretch is 11-14. Each of the nines is almost identical in distance: the front is 3164 yards, and the back is 3143 yards.
Many of you are familiar with Ballyhack. I was a member for a dozen years. As I grew older, I moved up a tee. Here is how the course played for me the last few years.
So how do your favorite courses play?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2024, 12:35:04 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2024, 02:17:15 PM »
I'm a bit confused, could you explain how you calculate these numbers?

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2024, 02:26:13 PM »
If I follow - each hole is rated 1 (easiest) to 10 (hardest) in terms of how difficult it is to make par on that hole. 

Using that method for my home course, for my own play, would look something like this:

Front: 4 / 5 / 9 / 7 / 7 / 5 / 8 / 3 / 6 = 54
Back: 8 / 6 / 3 / 3 / 5 / 8 / 6 / 7 / 7 = 53
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2024, 02:55:03 PM »
8/7/4/6/4/7/3/9/8 56
7/5/4/8/8/7/3/4/4 50


   The middle is challenging.


Just for fun. Pine Valley


5/8/4/5/6/4/9/4/6. 51
3/5/4/6/6/15/8/5/8 60
« Last Edit: June 26, 2024, 05:29:17 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2024, 03:01:11 PM »
I'm a bit confused, could you explain how you calculate these numbers?


The numbers were just how difficult those holes played for me. Ten being the most difficult and 1 easiest. The numbers are subjective. They will be different for you. For instance, six at Ballyhack is difficult for me because of how short off the tee I am now. The second shot is invariably played from a downhill lie to a green that is some fifty feet above me. Longer and younger guys do not find the second shot very difficult, except they don't see the bottom of the pin.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2024, 01:03:57 PM »
8/7/4/6/4/7/3/9/8 56
7/5/4/8/8/7/3/4/4 50


   The middle is challenging.


Just for fun. Pine Valley


5/8/4/5/6/4/9/4/6. 51
3/5/4/6/6/15/8/5/8 60


I found 5 and 13 to be comfortably the hardest holes on PV. 5 is ridiculously hard. 13 is impossible not to miss it right (that's how I found it anyway). You have both of those as 6 and 7 is a 9? You also have 15 as a 15, but I assume that's a typo. On a similar basis, this is roughly how I would rank them.


6/5/5/7/10/4/4/5/6 - 52
3/4/3/9/7/4/6/3/6 - 45

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2024, 09:41:32 PM »
I'll do PV


5-6-6-7-9-6-7-5-6   57
6-5-6-9-5-7-7-6-8   59


Four through seven on the front is the meat of the nine, while thirteen through sixteen are on the back. Both come in the middle.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2024, 09:43:18 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2024, 05:07:13 AM »
8/7/4/6/4/7/3/9/8 56
7/5/4/8/8/7/3/4/4 50


   The middle is challenging.


Just for fun. Pine Valley


5/8/4/5/6/4/9/4/6. 51
3/5/4/6/6/15/8/5/8 60


I found 5 and 13 to be comfortably the hardest holes on PV. 5 is ridiculously hard. 13 is impossible not to miss it right (that's how I found it anyway). You have both of those as 6 and 7 is a 9? You also have 15 as a 15, but I assume that's a typo. On a similar basis, this is roughly how I would rank them.


6/5/5/7/10/4/4/5/6 - 52
3/4/3/9/7/4/6/3/6 - 45


15 is 15 I only made it in single digits once. 5 fits my 3 wood which I often hit well.
AKA Mayday

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2024, 09:30:39 AM »
So, what can we learn from these sequences?  In my case, I am talking about a Donald Ross course that was restored/renovated very nicely by Kris Spence.

It starts pretty gently. 1st is a longish, but not difficult (4/10) par 5.  Definite chance to get off to a good start, especially with good course management.  2nd is short par 4, most difficult part is the tee shot, plays to a tricky green, but still very gettable (5/10). 

Then, the 3rd hole punches you (me) in the face.  A long (200 from middle tees, 235 from tips) par 3 to a volcano green with difficult recoveries from 60%-70% of the perimeter.  For me, this is the most difficult par on the course (9/10).  Brilliant hole, but so tough.

The 4th through 7th is a very challenging stretch (7, 7, 5, 8 out of 10), all par 4s, only one of which I consider a good chance at par.   

The 8th is the most scoreable hole on the course for me (3/10), a short par 5, usually reachable in two.  Even when I hit a poor drive or second shot, I usually have a good chance at par.  I don't make a ton of birdies in general, but I birdie this hole often.

The 9th is a par 3 that plays 186 +/- with some tricky pin positions.  Playing to the front middle of the green will always give you a good chance at par, but (a) I am not smart enough to ignore where the flag is located and (b) I am not good enough to execute consistently.  6/10 for me.

In considering the above sequence (4 / 5 / 9 / 7 / 7 / 5 / 8 / 3 / 6 = 54), it is most interesting to compare to the original order of play (when the original clubhouse was on the other side of the property).  At that time, the 7th hole (8/10 now, 10/10 in 1929) was the opener, before going to the current 6th, 5th, 8th, 9th, 1st*, 2nd*, 3rd, 4th.  That sequence, using my same ratings in different order, would be 8 / 5 / 7 / 3 / 6 / 4 / 5 / 9 / 7.  That is quite a different cadence.  Which would you prefer?  Can either be classified as more typical of Ross?  Did he really prefer a "gentle handshake?"

*Note: the current 1st and 2nd holes are not original Ross holes.  What were then the 6th and 7th holes were shortish par 4s.  While I never played them, I get the sense they would have fallen in a similar difficulty range, making the above cadence comparison still relevant.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2024, 10:22:20 AM »
While I do not think architects design with a particular difficulty cadence, there seems to be a run of difficulty in the middle of each nine.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi