[Ira Fishman]

Roman,


The question about comps is interesting. I have played fewer links than many of you, but my first thought about a comp for RD was Royal Aberdeen as well. I too liked the incoming nine more than most, and I thought that the finishing holes were quite strong. It does not have the scale nor vistas of RD, but I thought it overall a more interesting course.


I disagree with you about Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart which I found to be faux links designed for my fellow Americans to spend a lot of money.


Ira

[David_Tepper]

"For being an out-and-back routing, the slight S shape plus the reverse direction on 17 prevents playing too many consecutive holes into the same wind."          
That is a good point and it makes Dornoch very different from other out-&-back links. Other than #3 & #4 and perhaps #14 & #15 (and maybe #1 & #2), you do not play 2 holes in a row heading in the exact same direction. In addition, the fact that much of the course sits below a sizable ridge means some of the holes can be quite sheltered from the wind while other holes are very much exposed. If the wind is out of the west, the tee boxes on #1 and #10 are likely the windiest spots of the course, while you may not feel the wind at all on the 6th tee.

[Jeff Schley]

I guess I'm with the consensus. I love Dornoch, for all it's challenge and really think it is a tough short game chipping/putting course. Just because it's busy, I don't feel the commercialization some mention as a resort. When the new clubhouse comes, while needed, maybe it will feel different.  However, as is right now, it is a top 20 course in the world IMO. I have it right behind TOC for UK/Ireland courses.
The course I will go against the grain is Royal County Down. It is just too damn hard for mid cappers and above. I had a nice day to play, but tee to green it was the hardest course I think I have played. Blind shots, narrow fairways, consistent wind, huge gorse swallowing balls. I respect it, but didn't enjoy it at all, way too difficult. I think Dornoch's greens are better and much more playable.

[Daryl David]

I love it. I once played late on a summer evening and felt like the ground was vibrating beneath my feet. My wife felt it too. Very “Golf in the Kingdom” like. Then several plays later I had my first hole in one on #10, followed an eagle on #16. As far as I am concerned it is definitely a 10. 

[Roman Schwarz]

Roman,


The question about comps is interesting. I have played fewer links than many of you, but my first thought about a comp for RD was Royal Aberdeen as well. I too liked the incoming nine more than most, and I thought that the finishing holes were quite strong. It does not have the scale nor vistas of RD, but I thought it overall a more interesting course.


I disagree with you about Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart which I found to be faux links designed for my fellow Americans to spend a lot of money.


Ira

Slightly tangential to the Dornoch discussion, but I half agree with you.  I have Kingsbarns as a 6/7, but did really like Castle Stuart.  Kingsbarns has those 3 different parcels of land and at least weaves holes through that middle parcel somewhat interestingly.  The postcard holes are the ones that didn't seem to fit with the rest, while some of the rest are the ones I liked.
While I like Whistling Straits (ducks while getting rocks thrown my way), Castle Stuart feels like a better execution of the same constructed links with tiered 9's in each direction from the clubhouse.  If you're going to do an over the top Americanized links in Scotland, that's probably the ceiling.  The holes switch direction pretty frequently, so it showed well even though it was by far the windiest round I played on the whole trip.  I'd definitely play it again if the itinerary allowed.


I did forget to mention Carnoustie in my previous post, but, while I really liked it, I've never heard anyone try to argue it's their favorite course in Scotland.  It's a solid execution test (though not a brute) rather than something that stirs the soul.  I also played a bunch of others that aren't really worth bringing up next to Dornoch.  If someone wants to compare the Castle, the New, or a few others to Dornoch, I'd encourage you to go find a bar fight somewhere instead.

[Ted Sirbaugh]

I think about Dornoch often in the context of this post. I've played it a number of times and consider it among my very favorite courses in the world. But I am also more aware of its weaknesses (some of which have been highlighted) than any other course in that top tier. Ultimately, I just think the strengths significantly outweigh its shortcomings.

While its sense of place and cohesiveness is memorable, I hesitate to call the course greater than the sum of its parts. I agree that a couple of holes don't live up to the rest, but the sum of its parts is pretty darn good. If I try to rank all 36 holes between The Old Course and Dornoch, I end up with a top 18 that is close to evenly split.

There are a number of opportunities for heroic and penal shots, but it isn't usually a "do or die" situation. Success is rewarded, but failure still leaves room for recovery, albeit with increasingly limited options on the next shot. Meanwhile, the safe play typically leaves you with numerous options throughout.

In that sense, the course's strategy is often in the form of using restraint to maximize options. Here are two examples: It's not uncommon for the best score on hole 2 to come from the player who lays up to the landing pad in front of the green. That player can secure a relatively straightforward bogey, while still having a reasonable chance at par (and also having several options on their second shot). Those who challenge the green can find themselves playing ping pong (and there may only be one shot type in play).

On the 3rd hole, long hitters will try to drive it over the corner of the gorse. It's great if they pull it off, but there's a small margin of error. Meanwhile, the 220 yard shot aimed straight at the bunkers will tumble down the fairway, stay short of the bunkers, and leave a perfect angle into the green (where a running second shot is welcomed).

I'll add praise for one more hole: the 12th. I believe it's highly underrated and among the best par 5s in the world. Going for the green in two requires an incredibly exacting shot to navigate the bunker on the right and the mound / falloff on the left. Even though the green is massive, the target feels like threading a needle and requires a confident swing. For those playing it as a true three-shot hole, the second shot requires precision to ideally challenge the right bunker ~60 yards short of the green in order to maximize the angle. It could be my favorite hole on the course.

Dornoch gets a mystical reputation that can be hard to live up to. Then again, there is something mystical about walking up the hill from town to the course and embracing its challenging journey.

[David_Tepper]

"Castle Stuart feels like a better execution of the same constructed links with tiered 9's in each direction from the clubhouse."


Roman -

I had a chance to tour Castle Stuart with Mark Parsinen as construction of the course was in its final stages. Regarding the tiers of the course, he told me Dornoch and Cruden Bay were his inspiration for that aspect of the design.

DT 

[Richard Fisher]

I have always had two slight blind spots on this site, one is Pennard (always the Marmite course in Wales) and the other is Dornoch. I have only played 36 holes at RDGC ever, so this is in no way an expert view, but I remember playing it after playing Portrush (not on the same trip! and thinking that whilst the first 16 and a half holes of the then Portrush course was perhaps the greatest golf I had ever played,  Dornoch was very good but not quite in the same league. I know and recognise that this is a minority view! But as we are celebrating the 60th anniversary of Herb Wind's celebrated New Yorker piece (which first drew RDGC to the attention of a wider North American audience), I have to 'fess up, and am glad that one or two other brave souls on GCA have uttered similar heretical thoughts to mine own...

[Bill Gayne]

I'm not going to apply a Doak score as it's been way too long and only one playing (I do question the validity of many Doak scores after only one playing). I was wowed by Royal Dornoch. Played it with Mayday and Lou Duran on a sun drenched day after the Brora Golspie BUDA Cup.


My take away from playing Royal Dornoch was that it helped me to understand Donald Ross in that I could see what influenced him at many of his courses especially Pinehurst #2.


Bill

[Lou_Duran]

For context, I probably have played RD's Championship course 40 times under many different conditions with scores ranging from 73-90, most often from the Yellow (day) tees.  Management at the club does an excellent job of promoting the course and it is at times listed in various surveys to be in the top four courses in the world. 


I was once accosted in the locker room by a long time member and asked if I believed the course was really worthy of such a ranking (I think he was referring to one that had RD as #2).  Having learned that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and that ratings are highly subjective, my response was that it certainly belonged in the conversation.   He seemed to be satisfied with my response- at least he didn't take me to task- and I used the same line successfully when asked by a tourist at Trump Aberdeen regarding the veracity of the inscription on a plaque near the first tee noting that some consider the course to be among the finest links in the world.


RD is a great place to visit regularly in a large part due to the playability of the course, the wonderful sea views from many areas, and the mostly peaceful, laid-back, quaint, friendly atmosphere of the village.  One is likely to encounter very different playing conditions during a one week visit, and for the UK, the climate and weather seem well above average.


The "faults" have been noted and don't need to be rehashed in detail.  While the par 3s are notable, they can all be card-wreckers and each pair per nine will have similar playing characteristics.  The two 5s will typically play either into or down wind, which when moderately blowing, don't really raise them to a high level of difficulty.  The changes to #7, IMO, were a lost opportunity- I had inquired about the feasibility of extending the back tee 50-75 yards above and back of the 6th green to make it into a par 5 with an opposing wind to #s 9 and 12, while eliminating a rather one-dimensional long hole on a course that doesn't lack long 4s for most golfers.  The changes to #8 did differentiate it from #17, but it added another unnecessary long 4.


I suppose that this is a long way of saying that whatever RD achieves in accolades and appreciation, it is probably a good example of the synergy of several factors adding to the whole being greater than its parts.

[David Kelly]

I very much enjoy playing RD but I will say that the finish is a little anti-climactic after Foxy.  I think only #17 is a stand-out in the last four hole stretch although #15 is fun.  I'm not a fan of #16 and #18 feels like a slog.

In fact, nobody ever talks about #18 at Dornoch.  Even on this thread the hole is barely mentioned.  And I don't have much to say about it myself other than stay left and take 1 or 2 clubs extra on the approach.  I do like the little shelf in the front and left side of the green that will reject a weakly hit ball.

[Sean_A]

I very much enjoy playing RD but I will say that the finish is a little anti-climactic after Foxy.  I think only #17 is a stand-out in the last four hole stretch although #15 is fun.  I'm not a fan of #16 and #18 feels like a slog.

In fact, nobody ever talks about #18 at Dornoch.  Even on this thread the hole is barely mentioned.  And I don't have much to say about it myself other than stay left and take 1 or 2 clubs extra on the approach.  I do like the little shelf in the front and left side of the green that will reject a weakly hit ball.

It’s the drive at 18 which is indifferent. The green and approach are good. To me it seems like the wrong time for a ball breaker hole.

After playing 15 into a good wind I have more appreciation for the hole. The large mound is quite problematic. If folks can blow drives over the mound then I understand why it’s an underwhelming hole.

I have never liked 16….very forced into the design. Feels like a needs must transition hole. You know what, Doak built a shorter and far more interesting hole whose uphill fairway slopes left toward shit. 13 at St Pat’s. I don’t like the drive, but the approach and green are cool. It too feels a bit forced into the design. Gotta make way for home somehow. Definitely one of my least favourite holes at St Pat’s.

Ciao

[David_Tepper]

"After playing 15 into a good wind I have more appreciation for the hole. The large mound is quite problematic. If folks can blow drives over the mound then I understand why it’s an underwhelming hole."

Not being one able to blow a drive over the mound, I think #15 is a pretty good short par-4. I think the green is deceptively challenging, with the false front on the right directing balls into the right side bunker and the steep slope guarding the left front of the green.


When the pin is set front left, behind that steep slope, a shot hit into the green that does not check quickly is liable to catch the slope on the left side of green and roll some distance away.


Wherever the pin is set, knocking it stiff with a wedge in your hand from 80 or 90 yards is no easy task. Neither is playing a run-up shot.       

[David_Tepper]

"After playing 15 into a good wind I have more appreciation for the hole. The large mound is quite problematic. If folks can blow drives over the mound then I understand why it’s an underwhelming hole."

Not being one able to blow a drive over the mound, I think #15 is a pretty good short par-4. I think the green is deceptively challenging, with the false front on the right directing balls into the right side bunker and the steep slope guarding the left front of the green.

When the pin is set front left, behind that steep slope, a shot hit into the green that does not check quickly is liable to catch the slope on the left side of green and roll some distance away.

Wherever the pin is set, knocking it stiff with a wedge in your hand from 80 or 90 yards is no easy task. Neither is playing a run-up shot.     

[Sean_A]

"After playing 15 into a good wind I have more appreciation for the hole. The large mound is quite problematic. If folks can blow drives over the mound then I understand why it’s an underwhelming hole."

Not being one able to blow a drive over the mound, I think #15 is a pretty good short par-4. I think the green is deceptively challenging, with the false front on the right directing balls into the right side bunker and the steep slope guarding the left front of the green.


When the pin is set front left, behind that steep slope, a shot hit into the green that does not check quickly is liable to catch the slope on the left side of green and roll some distance away.

Wherever the pin is set, knocking it stiff with a wedge in your hand from 80 or 90 yards is no easy task. Neither is playing a run-up shot.     

It’s a large green which often makes it difficult to judge distance, especially if uphill…and more especially if into a wind.

Ciao

[David_Tepper]

Requisite threadjack :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV6Ux36DT0U


https://www.mlb.com/news/jayson-werth-horse-dornoch-wins-belmont-stakes

[Bill Crane]

One clear aspect of this discussion is how OFTEN folks have played the course.     I think I have about 9 rounds and my opinion of the course has increased over time.
For Tom Doak to note he has played several rounds is interesting to me since he is one of the few people in the world who can play a course once and probably form an accurate assessment of it.   
This is one of my issues with ratings, many courses are only played once by a specific rater. 
This group may actual harbor a bias against beautiful courses, including Dornoch, since so many are over-rated because of their beauty ( IE.   Pebble Beach ).   
If the last three holes were sprinkled about the routing opinions might actually be different.
Dornoch has much more going on than meets the eye at first and multiple rounds will make that clear.
It is a course really    " WORTH GETTING TO KNOW".

[cary lichtenstein]

I played it 5 times and loved every round

[Philip Gawith]

On the basis of better late than never….


I have visited Dornoch annually for nearly thirty years and played upwards of 75 rounds there so I am hopelessly biased in its favour!  My pleasure in playing the course has never diminished one iota over this time. Indeed I look forward to every trip with childlike pleasure.


David has done a great job of making the enthusiasts case for RGDC so I will limit myself to a few thoughts:


- to Michael’s basic point that, say, Carnoustie and NB ask more questions, I ran through my mind the first nine at PV and Merion, to take two storied courses and wondered - how many of these holes are really asking questions beyond “hit the shot”.
- the point about various similar style holes does not resonate with me/feels a bit over-intellectualised. Yes there is some similar between 2 and 6, but to focus on this rather than the pair being two of the most memorable/daunting one shooters you will ever face in nine holes is to miss the point. Yes 3 and 4 have some similarity, but the drives are different and green complexes completely different. Four is surely one of the greatest greens ever built. Yes 8 and 17 have similarity, but plenty difference too. Not sure 10 and 13 are that similar # very different greens, different angles and hence wind impact (10 downwind is a horrible hole, but never the same issue with 13]
- agree that 12 is a fantastic par 5, you think it is quite gettable but the mound/green/bunker complex make it play so much harder than it looks.
- David is 100% right to stress difficulty of 15 green. I have often driven quite close to it(from yellow tees) and seldom have more that. 50 yards in, but always a difficult shot. The green is diabolical!
- don’t share Tom and Sean’s disdain for 16. Maybe they will explain why it is so bad? And arriving on 16 green one a fine day is one of golf’s great moments. In which regard I would add that arriving on the 7th tee and looking down over much of the course is, for me, the single most compelling visual moment that golf can offer.
- I have never felt let down by the finishing holes. 18 has a great green with the little landing platform front left and infuriating little grass ditch just in front of it. I guess this makes me think that one of the many strengths of Dornoch is the variety and challenge of the greens. You could say that 11 and 18 can be a slog, but 11 is another case (like 4 also) of an enormous and challenging green = though I think 5 is actually the longest, if not largest.

[Michael Chadwick]

Appreciate many of these responses, some of which are very well thought out and detailed. I enjoyed following along and hearing from both sides of the argument. Thank you!


What seems clear is that the course is well respected by everyone, and rightfully so. It’s a course that continues to resonate with me, no doubt. And apart from The Old Course, it’s the one I most would want to revisit.

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