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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Clark’s Ball Move Or Did He Improve His Lie?
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2024, 01:31:37 PM »
Quote from: David Federman on March 13, 2024, 08:53:26 AM
By grounding one's club, isn't it implicit that in deep rough, one's lie is necessarily improved? One could analogize to the rule against breaking a branch while taking a practice swing under a tree. Here, in deep rough, by grounding one's club, one necessarily alters the grass behind the ball in such a way as to improve the lie.


As to whether the ball moved in Clark's situation, I say no. It did oscillate, so to speak, but there is no way to determine if it did actually visibly move in any minimal amount. Further, it would be impossible to place the ball in its original position in the deep rough,even if it did move microscopically. It clearly was suspended by the grass above ground level.


David,

Go check the video I posted in reply #8.  I didn't think the ball changed position either, but it clearly did. And it clearly shows it moved because he was tamping down the grass behind it repeatedly.



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Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Clark’s Ball Move Or Did He Improve His Lie?
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2024, 07:56:04 PM »
You can slightly improve your lie so long as it's lightly grounding your club, and the ball doesn't move. Wyndham didn't lightly ground his club, and the ball moved.

0 for 2.

Quote from: David Federman on March 13, 2024, 08:53:26 AM
there is no way to determine if it did actually visibly move in any minimal amount.
I mean, it moved a noticeable amount… but… sure, we'll go with that.  :)
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Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
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David Federman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Clark’s Ball Move Or Did He Improve His Lie?
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2024, 08:10:38 AM »
Essentially, I agree the ball "moved," but returned to its original position. However, I do think Clark should have been penalized for improving his lie by clearly pushing down on his club behind the ball, rather than lightly "grounding" his club. Really, isn't the question whether it was even possible to "lightly ground his club" in the deep rough without improving his lie? As such, wouldn't it be on the player to not ground his club at all in order to avoid a penalty? Does this situation create a conflict between the rule permitting the lightly grounding of one's club behind the ball and the rule prohibiting one from improving their lie?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 08:12:39 AM by David Federman »
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Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Clark’s Ball Move Or Did He Improve His Lie?
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2024, 10:53:25 AM »
"You're not allowed to improve your lie or cause the ball to move."[/size]


"You can slightly improve your lie so long as it's lightly grounding your club"[/size]
[/font]
[/size]I would love to hear what John V has to say about this. I would think that every time you ground your club in the rough you are improving your lie. What then is definition of "slightly"?
[/size]

[/font][/color]
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