[SPDB]

Look, all that i'm saying, and I think it is a fair point to make, is that there is a big difference between motivating someone through "a slap on the face," and insulting someone through a "slap on the face." Read in the most objective light, Dick's original post is fairly characterized as the latter.

The liberties Dick took with his assumed knowledge of bnose, were unfair (and, more importantly, uncharacteristic). I would respond likewise if dick mentioned that he were a cop, and I went off on a rant accusing him of being fat, lazy, having a weakness for donuts, corrupt, and possessing a penchant for beating minorities to death. The analogy is extreme, but its identical in substance to what dick did.

Surely Bnose was entitled to call him an asshole, since that's precisely what dick's post held himself out to be. I know differently, but bnose doesn't. Might it be ill advised in light the public nature of this site? absolutely.

[RJ_Daley]

As a golf course architect, my .02 on this is that Brian shouldn't necessarily go into construction.  I know a lot of guys who went that route, got typecast, and never got over to the design side.  Why not prepare and go straight to an architect, by developing a personal relationship?

Jeff, I would sure like to know of whom you are speaking in that comment.  I feel like I might be entering a "Huckabian" sort of position taking issue with a well respected and successful golf course architect (and a past Prez. of ASGCA at that!)  But, as I demonstrated already on this thread, I can suffer from foot in mouth disease and a severe over-reach, so why stop now?  Unfortuanately, I already know that you can't by your own ASGCA ethics, name names.  

But Jeff, I can't really think of a design/construction entity where their design suffers due to a typecast and lack of ability to "design" good golf holes.  Is there some sort of "mindset" are you referring too?  I can think of a few architects that are strictly design, plan oriented, CADD fixated, who use the bidding process to obtain the construction side, and don't do the most creative designs IMHO.  I can think of a firm or two that have a subsidiary construction entity that have been accused of lapses of ethics and substandard construction quality.  I wouldn't care to put that issue on trial however, for lack of an expert witness...

As for my harsh comments to whom we have come to know as Brian (not just bnoser), I hope that he will take what I said in the spirit of one that was trying to reality smack him and get him to go out and "prepare" to find and develop that "relationship" with those in the business "straight" as key words you used above, Jeff.  I also did give him two book references that I think are good entry level reading material to help him in this early stage.  John Gunning, who as I noted has done much of the hard work already and is a good model to follow IMHO, offers good contact information, probably out  of sympathy, knowing how hard it is.

I do wish Brian good luck in a career search.  It is NOT easy out there, I know that!

[RJ_Daley]

 

...and I went off on a rant accusing him of being fat, lazy, having a weakness for donuts...

Sean, you have the first part right!

[THuckaby2]

I feel like I might be entering a "Huckabian" sort of position taking issue with a well respected and successful golf course architect (and a past Prez. of ASGCA at that!)  

 

Loved that, Dick.  FYI, that adjective is used often in our golf rounds... when someone hits a little more turf than ball, it is a Huckabian shot.  I am a little more "girthful" than my friends and family...  

But it remains an honor to become and adjective, for better or for worse!

I'm just wondering what Daleyesque would mean... "earnest but fun-loving and knowing his stuff without a doubt" - that's how I'd define it.  

TH

[Michael Dugger]

Boy, has this thread ever gone off the deep end.

1.  I think RJ was slightly bent that Noser started a new thread about something that was just discussed on another.

If this was a crime, however, I ought to be verbally assaulted as well because I just did the same thing and I'm not even a newbie!

2.  I think what is important to grasp here, and I am addressing this to Mr. Noser in particular, is that golf course architecture is most definately NOT one of those industries in which you hang your shingle out on the front door and get a job.

Just about everyone here wishes they worked in the industry, if they don't already.  But it is a finite industry with what seems to be an ever-growing infinite number of job seekers.  I can relate to RJ in this respect, I want all of you newbies who want to do what I want to do to take a hike!!  They are my jobs, I was here first!!!!

But, of course, this is an unrealistic, immature and stupid attitude to have.  The treehouse welcomes in new members, undoubtedly, but I guess there is a right of passage to be had to some degree.

Tom Paul has been studying golf course architecture for how many years?  25+?  

Tommy Naccarato was reading Thomas and Hunter well before Doak's Anatomy came out and the golf course architecture book craze took off.  (Thank you Sleeping Bear press)

Many many of the contributors to this site who are "in the biz" toiled for years in drainage ditches or on clunky Ford tractors under the cancer causing sun before finding their resting places.  

Point being, this is an industry founded and begun by men who "figured out" how to do it on their own.  Colt figured out how to make good turf grow on clay soil.  Trent Jones figured out how to make grass grow over lava.  George Crump mowed down 70,000 trees to build Pine Valley.  A golf course slides off into the ocean, Pete Dye comes along and rebuilds it.  At TPC Sawgrass he virtually flip flopped the soil on the entire site to make it suitable for growing grass.

This is a business of perseverence and timing.  It is also one of creativity and vision.  If you pay attention to how the practicing architects talk, I think even they are unsure if they are going to have enough work for their "crew" next year.

I think RJ was just administering a little tough love.  Slighty abrasive as it may have been, the future of this industry lies in free thinkers and people who are going to figure out of to make grass grow in antartica.  How to get the first commission in Iraq.  How to get the environmentalists off of our backs.  How to get grass to grow faster and stronger with less fertilizer, water and for less money.  How to edumacate the public golfers into art critics, not the cretins that Joe six pack is today.

In light of these matters, figuring out how one gets into this industry seems about as easy as picking up a library card.

Welcome to the foray B. Noser!  These folks will kick you in the knutz and then invite you out to play 18 holes at a hidden gem and then get you drunk.  In My Humble Opinion, heretofore known as IMHO, that's pretty good livin'!  
       

[tonyt]

Had a couple of those replying along the way here not noticed our new friend's name?

Deliberate attempt to incite mini revolt successful  

[Jeff_Brauer]

RJ,

Even if I named names for my comment, it would mean nothing to anyone, as I was thinking of many young aspirants who worked for construction companies as a means to get in with an architecture firm later, but never made it.  While it does happen - Keith Foster springs to mind - it usually doesn't, and the young man is quickly a middle aged man still working in construction.

As to the words "straight" and "personal relationship" I sense you are going a Micheal Jacksonian direction with your line of thought, and I intended no such thing.  It is tough to get hired in the biz.  Many of the youngsters I have hired (or even people with mid level experience) have called one week and heard 'no job" and called back to chat a month later and heard "get here as soon as possible,"

My only point is that you wouldn't try for a job at the police department by hanging around with fireman, so there is not a lot of point of hanging with (ie working for) contractors, in hopes of being offered a GCA job.  Just approach the policemen, er, golf architects, and avoid the middle man!

Also, there are many types - ie "mindsets" of architecture firms, and I'll bet each tends to hire - no surprise here - people much like themselves.  If Brian wants to work for a Tom Doak type of firm, he should find out what that takes.  If he want to work for a plans firm, he should call me and find out about what that takes......(yes, drawing ability is required!)

You want to believe that field work is the only way to go.  That may be partially tied to your desire to recreateSand Hills in the dirt somewhere, and, unless I miss my guess, a distinct non-ablility to draw!  So, you would gravitate to a Tom Doak type firm if you were making a career change.

However, I thought this site had officially adopted the TEPaul "Big Tent" theory of architecture, and that all that mattered was final results.

So, you're not in any Huckabian territory quite yet, but I think you misunderstood my post.  Imagine that!  An architect speaking in a language no one can understand.  I'll bet that's never happened before!

[Norbert P]

   
  Dick "What the Hell were you thinking on 18!" Daley is only testing the depth of Bnoser's skin.  A valuable lesson for someone wanting into design.

  Brian Noser, I suggest you change your moniker (if it's not your real name).  It preloads translations negatively.  
 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Slag,

No joke!  If you don't like being called an asshole, don't be a golf architect.  Far and away the number one job criteria is ability to take verbal assaults!

[Brian Noser]

Yes he was A little out of line in his comments I may have been out of line in calling him an asshole. But the thing is being new in this field and new to the site I am not going to let somebody who has nerver met me or asked why I was relly interested, tell me that I am the problem with the whole industry. I do have an interest in the subject. I am not going to roll over and let some one tell me that I am lazy and basicly stupid for asking that question. so that is why I replied that way. yes you have to be able to take a verbal lashing when you are wrong about somthing but not asking a simple question. That is the problem I had with his rant.

Thanks for all of your help. I will be here for a while good information.

By the way got the packet from Cal- Poly in the mail today

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