Best hole at St Patricks

[Ally Mcintosh]

Having played the course a few more times, I’m not sure I’d necessarily change my previous stated “favourite” holes of 1, 9 & 17 but I would agree with the general consensus that it is hard to choose among so many great holes.


The only holes I wouldn’t choose are:


6 (as previously stated although I love the way it sets up to the eye).


15 (not convinced by the feeling of it squeezed in with a walk back almost the entire length of the hole)


16 (which actually is done really, really well with the blowouts in the distance and the hazard and green shaping. Still feel a bit discombobulated by the drive in to a wide-open “field”).


Above is clutching at straws just to make the point that I could nominate any of the other 15 holes…


What I did note this time is that I think 12 is my favourite of the par-5’s; incredibly rumpled ground, a second shot that generally makes you think, a clever and severe green site, and a stunning backdrop in the distance for the furthest inland of the holes.


I do think the course will only reach its full potential over the coming years as the ground firms up even further. It is critical that good players are made to consider the ground game as much as possible because this introduces so much variety on this course and will make it shine even further.

[Sean_A]

12 is comfortably my favourite par 5. Lovely contours shy of the green. The hole also seems more immediate than the others. The features are more in your face, probably because of the uphill nature of the hole. Caps off a magnificent three hole run abruptly halted by the drive on 13.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

One of the ways in which I like to look at holes, features and courses is by reviewing them from behind the green looking back towards the tee or from various fairway spots again looking back to the tee. I managed this on a bunch of occasions but wish I’d had the time to do it for the entire StP by walking the routing in reverse, ie starting behind the 18th green and finishing behind the 1st tee. One day perhaps.
It was also interesting to spectate, watch others play from various view points on the course especially from unusual angles and see in particular how shots reacted when landing.
Walking out onto the course as a spectator was also interesting in that it highlighted the size of the property and given the soft, spongy deep grass covering so much of the non-golf areas indicated what a physically arduous, ankle spraining, job walking the property to establish a routing must have been.
Atb

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I was blown away by the contours and undulations of the fairways, right from the start with that incredible first hole. There are so many amazing things to say about the course, that I feel I'm nitpicking a bit by bringing up the flatness or tameness of some of the fairways. I think the 2nd, 7th, 8th and 16th fairways re-used quite a lot of the fairways that were left over from the old layouts of Hackett & O'Haire. Could these holes have been better if these fairways were shaped like many of the other brilliant fairways?


I do think that the 2nd and 7th are great holes, but could they be better?

[Ally Mcintosh]

I was blown away by the contours and undulations of the fairways, right from the start with that incredible first hole. There are so many amazing things to say about the course, that I feel I'm nitpicking a bit by bringing up the flatness or tameness of some of the fairways. I think the 2nd, 7th, 8th and 16th fairways re-used quite a lot of the fairways that were left over from the old layouts of Hackett & O'Haire. Could these holes have been better if these fairways were shaped like many of the other brilliant fairways?


I do think that the 2nd and 7th are great holes, but could they be better?

Definitely not!


Why shape the 2nd or 7th fairways when that area (2,7,8 surrounded by dunes) is perfect as is. Only shaping I saw in that area (aside from bunkers and greens) was a shoulder off the right on the 2nd. Maybe some stuff on 8 approach but rest looked pretty much what was there. I’m sure there was other small, local stuff but nothing over the entirety of a fairway.


There’s no doubt there was some pretty significant shaping done elsewhere on the course but that will have been to make the individual holes “work” as opposed to create undulation for the sake of it. 2 & 7 have all the movement needed with the natural topography.


The one remaining area that you could argue for additional shaping just to create more feature is the drive on 16, as alluded to above. This is because it falls away, semi-blind on a convex hill without any frame of reference either side of the fairway. It has a small feeling of a field about it, especially given its width…. However, to bring something worthwhile to that area and still make it feel natural would have taken a pretty significant piece of moving / shaping… so I guess they decided “why?”… probably the same conclusion I would have come to…


Tom can correct me if I am wrong with any assumptions above… if he so wishes…

[Ally Mcintosh]

I might just add that whilst I post about the minutiae of golf hole details at St. Patrick’s to distract myself, a small, tight-knit village community just around the bay - where I have a couple of very good friends - has just been shattered by a huge gas explosion. My thoughts are with them.


Ally

[Tom_Doak]

I was blown away by the contours and undulations of the fairways, right from the start with that incredible first hole. There are so many amazing things to say about the course, that I feel I'm nitpicking a bit by bringing up the flatness or tameness of some of the fairways. I think the 2nd, 7th, 8th and 16th fairways re-used quite a lot of the fairways that were left over from the old layouts of Hackett & O'Haire. Could these holes have been better if these fairways were shaped like many of the other brilliant fairways?

I do think that the 2nd and 7th are great holes, but could they be better?

Donal:


I don't know if the 2nd and 7th could be better.  That's all a matter of opinion.


The vast majority of the shaping done to the fairways was to soften features so they would be movable, not to add interest to them, as we started with plenty by grace of Nature.  Of the holes you mentioned, we did do some shaping on two: 


#2:  we added a ridge across the fairway to tie in with the shoulder on the right in the landing area, which the previous course had cut into, leaving a scar.  I thought this turned out excellent - the shaping is bumpy enough that it looks like everything else there.


#8:  I actually cut away significantly from the left side on the approach to the green, so that you are able to see something of where the left edge is before it falls away to the next hole.  Originally it was all above eye level, and you had no idea where the edge of the trouble was.  We took all this material to build up the lower tee on #9 and to soften a dip in the fairway on 8.  It was actually one of the bigger changes we made, but no one seems to have noticed it.


The other fairways where we did the most softening were #1, 9, 11, 13, 14, 17, and 18.  The cuts and fills on 9, 17 and 18 were especially big.

[Mike Worth]

I was blown away by the contours and undulations of the fairways, right from the start with that incredible first hole. There are so many amazing things to say about the course, that I feel I'm nitpicking a bit by bringing up the flatness or tameness of some of the fairways. I think the 2nd, 7th, 8th and 16th fairways re-used quite a lot of the fairways that were left over from the old layouts of Hackett & O'Haire. Could these holes have been better if these fairways were shaped like many of the other brilliant fairways?


I do think that the 2nd and 7th are great holes, but could they be better?

The one remaining area that you could argue for additional shaping just to create more feature is the drive on 16, as alluded to above. This is because it falls away, semi-blind on a convex hill without any frame of reference either side of the fairway. It has a small feeling of a field about it, especially given its width…. However, to bring something worthwhile to that area and still make it feel natural would have taken a pretty significant piece of moving / shaping… so I guess they decided “why?”… probably the same conclusion I would have come to…


Tom can correct me if I am wrong with any assumptions above… if he so wishes…

One reason16 is one of my favorite holes is because of the vagueness of the drive. Because it’s so wide open, I had to pick my line of attack. Other than the right fairway bunker, there is no definition as you mention.


So one has to mentally conjure up a spot to aim at which added to the hole’s challenge and enjoyment.

[Tom_Doak]

One reason16 is one of my favorite holes is because of the vagueness of the drive. Because it’s so wide open, I had to pick my line of attack. Other than the right fairway bunker, there is no definition as you mention.

So one has to mentally conjure up a spot to aim at which added to the hole’s challenge and enjoyment.

There are a few things to aim at in the distance, if you wish. 

[Tony_Muldoon]

A quick run through suggests only 18 has not been mentioned in dispatches.

I saw maybe 12 attempts to drive it and only one success.  All were social rounds.  I think the way to play with anything on the line is always to lay up to what seems the flattest green.  Currently it doesn't seem the finish the course deserves?


2,7, 8 & 15 are the next least praised holes?

[Sean_A]

I mentioned 18 as a hole I am fond of and it didn't go unnoticed with me that I was the only one.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I really like 18 as a finisher. Think it’s a wonderful hole although the walk to the tee is a little annoying. The scale and width for such a short par-4 is quite something and it’s a difficult approach shot regardless of length but one where the pin position potentially changes the decision off the tee.


The earth movement here is quite noticeable but primarily from the grasses rather than the shaping itself. The hollow front right might need tweaked in time because all the balls landing in there gather to the same 30 sqf patch of grass, creating a divot basin.

[Jake McCarty]

For what it's worth, this is my favorite of Mr. Doak's courses. I was a nanosecond from joining two of his courses that are a bit more well-known/celebrated at this point, but never quite pulled the trigger.


I think the opening hole is the best opening hole in GB&I alongside Trump Aberdeen. If someone says Dornoch or Cruden Bay are better, well, agree to disagree.


It sounds crazy to say this, but the walk is tough and that's my only knock against it being the type of place I could play 30 days in a row. Golf carts/path are ugly, but I like to play more than 18 in a day myself.


My wife and son also played (and have played many of the greats throughout the world) and preferred it over RCD and Portrush as well.


Great work Mr. Doak. I personally liked how the greens struck the right balance of movement.

[Niall C]

The great reveal at the 4th

I can't say that I thought of the walk on to the 4th tee as "the great reveal". It might be the first proper look at the water but before you get there you have had a couple of other impressive "reveals" with several more to follow. I strongly suspect that is to do with the nature of the land and that however you routed the course in that landscape you would inevitably have a handful of such moments. I might be doing Tom and his team a great disservice in saying that, but to my amateur eye it didn't look as though the routing was contrived to create views but rather was purely about producing the best golf.


Niall   

[Niall C]

I think the opening hole is the best opening hole in GB&I alongside Trump Aberdeen. If someone says Dornoch or Cruden Bay are better, well, agree to disagree.


It sounds crazy to say this, but the walk is tough and that's my only knock against it being the type of place I could play 30 days in a row. Golf carts/path are ugly, but I like to play more than 18 in a day myself.

Jake


I'm not one to pick an argument    however your other contenders for best opening hole in GB&I suggest you don't get out of the north of Scotland much  .


As for the walk, that can be the nature of links land that it can be hard on the feet particularly where there are a lot of undulations however considering this is a modern course I thought the green to next tee walks were actually very good.


Niall

[Sean_A]

I think the opening hole is the best opening hole in GB&I alongside Trump Aberdeen. If someone says Dornoch or Cruden Bay are better, well, agree to disagree.


It sounds crazy to say this, but the walk is tough and that's my only knock against it being the type of place I could play 30 days in a row. Golf carts/path are ugly, but I like to play more than 18 in a day myself.

Jake


I'm not one to pick an argument    however your other contenders for best opening hole in GB&I suggest you don't get out of the north of Scotland much  .


As for the walk, that can be the nature of links land that it can be hard on the feet particularly where there are a lot of undulations however considering this is a modern course I thought the green to next tee walks were actually very good.


Niall

Being a guy that relishes a compact course to help keep the walk good, I am surprised how good the walk at St Pat's is!  The property is immense and reminds me of Cleeve Hill in that way. However, the journey is more managed by returning nines. As a guy happy to play the tee near green the walk isn't bad at all. Ally mentioned 18, but there is a tee 50 yards behind 17 green. The hole doesn't change that much for the shorter tee. You can climb to a few more tees, but I never bothered until I walked the course with just a putter. I never did bother making it up to the high 8th tee, don't see the point. Played the 9th from a tee which means I can't reach the green two, but that teeing area makes sense. The 15th can be played from the teeing area at the end of the path. If I was with the right folks, some what I consider unnecessary walks would be eliminated.

My biggest beef is the tee colours. The stone thing does not work well as the colours are hard to distunguish. Give in and go bright.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

StP is damn wonderful and this thread needs some photos, hope no one minds me posting them, so .....


Something large and sandy between the tee and green on the 5th


14th green


15th green


Two photos of the 11th green. First photo - famous shelf at left. Sneaky tabletop at right. Second photo - opposite direction - gully running between shelf and tabletop.



From rear of 9th green


From front of 13th green


From in front of the 12th green



10th green from front right


16th green from back in the fairway


2nd hole from the tee and looking back from the green



Golfs been played at Rosapenna for a long, long time. I wonder what Harry Vardon, seen here in a now coloured old b&w photo teeing off in the direction of what is now the second-9 of the OTM course (not StP!), would have made of things today?


For historical purposes there are some details of the former St Patrick’s courses here - https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/ireland/republic-of-ireland/1880-ire-st-patricks-golf-club


Atb
atb

[MClutterbuck]

Interesting responses. Our group of 4 played the course 4 times over 2 days. We all loved St. Patricks. I rank it ahead of Kingsbarns and I think it will change the pattern of golf travel in Ireland going forward.


I think the back nine are easier holes to love from the first time you play, while the front 9 grows on you with each round. It is a well balanced course, no bad holes at all.


I would never pick #1 as one of the best and just talked to the rest in our group and they agree. It is probably an iron off the tee hole, since hitting a drive might get you down 1 ball from the start. It is relatively narrow the first time you play it, and still somewhat narrow once you know it better.


The 9th is spectacular from tee to green. I think i counted 11 holes in view from the tees. 13-15 is a phenomenal stretch. Birdies were had on all, even though they are not easy holes.


I missed my first hole in one by a quarter of an inch on 15. I immediately liked that hole. 17 and 18 is another magnificent stretch, beautiful scale.


I hope I dont get into hot water, but suspect we are not the first ones to try it. The chip shot from 18 tees to 17 green is FUN. Leave yourself an old ball to try that if you have some wait on 18.


Congratulations Tom and team on a fantastic course!

[Dan_Callahan]

This is what the shot from 18 tee to 17 green looks like ...

[MClutterbuck]

This is what the shot from 18 tee to 17 green looks like ...

Great photo! I believe there might be some shorter grass perspective from further back on the 18th tee. Scary, fun shot.

[Thomas Dai]

A return visit after a 12 month gap prompts a couple of photos of a course for which my previously high level of admiration has increased. The width, the options plus the size, cunning and contouring of the green complexes and putting surfaces.
atb

[Philip Winter]

Your previous pictures, along with these, are great!


I played St. Patrick's twice, a couple of weeks ago. Wow. What a place. It is a big walk, but boy did I have fun. And I played it with two 20 handicaps and we all raved about our experience. It's like a giant want through nature. Perhaps too big a walk for day to day play... but I had as much fun thinking my way around and hitting downhill and uphill there as I have had nearly anywhere on a golf course. Was fortunate to have different winds and a strong wind.


A masterpiece.


If I had to make any critique (and I'm really stretching b/c I loved it so much) the 12th hole (contrary to what some others have said above) was my least favorite hole. Granted, we played it straight into a stiff wind. I found the tee shot tough and the second shot forced a lay up to a long third and a very tricky and smallish green. Just felt like a massive slog. That being said, I did like the 13th tee shot (which someone commented on as not being up to snuff). And of course the stretch from 14 in to the clubhouse is spectacular. 18 and 9 are such fun holes to finish matches on.

A return visit after a 12 month gap prompts a couple of photos of a course for which my previously high level of admiration has increased. The width, the options plus the size, cunning and contouring of the green complexes and putting surfaces.
atb