Par

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Christie O'Connor Senior once said of Longniddry, 'You may not have any par fives but you've got a lot of par four and seven-eighths.'  We know exactly what he means.  For the record, it's a very lovely parkland course east of Edinburgh on the road towards Muirfield.  There are super views over the Firth of Forth and Sam Snead won one of his World Seniors titles here.

[Kip Patterson]

A lively discussion.

Gambling? @ strokes pays $5, 3 strokes pays $2, 4 strokes pays $1 and 5+ pays zip.  Who needs "PAR?"

TV coverage?  "Curtis, that makes 283 for Singh and Tiger is still at 282.  Will Tiger go for it now that Singh is sitting on the green and Tiger is still in the fairway?"

RJ Daley- Thanks for the info on the Warren Course.  Great to hear that one of the "traditional guardians" (aka Gentle Ben) was so bold.  Good on ya Ben!!!

I think the point I'm trying to get at is the desire to measure ourselves against some sort of external standard (par in this case) as opposed to measuring ourselves against ourselves.  My score today versus my score yesterday or my "average score," etc.  I think that it is a much sterner test to play against my score than against any external measure.

I loved Rich Goodale's comment about defending the 4-minute mile by making the race longer.  Now I've got a good comeback for those people who think turning a "Par 5" into a "Par 4" for the US OPEN.  I suppose we could get into talking about the Changes at Augusta National to "update it."
LET'S NOT!!!

Lou Duran- I had the greatest pleasure playing a "course" in the Westing Pasture on the Isle of Iona.  There are supposed to be holes out there but no cups, no pins and few indications of tees.  I had a routing that I obtained from the local hotel and sort of guessed at the directions.  What I managed to create was a re-creation of how the game probably started.  I'd pick out some spot and hit my ball up to it then hit it to the next one and so on.  Lots of wind and spitting rain got in the way becasue my hands eventually got really cold (impervious to the refreshment of a little single malt anti-freeze, no less) and I just walked around amazed at the beauty of the land.  It's a piece of basically untouched linksland, mowed and fertilized by the sheep flocks on it.  I highly recommend the experience.  Puts our American aerial game in considerable perspective.

I think we've missed an important point about the game by competing with par to the point of obsession.

Anyone play the par 3 "The Rockies" at Anstruther?  235 yard sliver with rocks/ocean, OB all along the left and a 60 ft cliff covered in whins on the right  AND the green is tucked behind the headland of the cliff.  Spectacular shot off the cliff at a sliver of fairway.  No, you can't see the green at all.  Oh, the "fairway" also slopes significantly toward the rocks and water.  Made an 8 the first time and a 7 the second time.  I had not woken up, completely, to the absurdity of "par" and was quite upset at the "unfairness" of the hole at the time.
Silly me.  By the way, one of the locals in the club house told me he'd seen a 1 and a 13 during the time he'd been there playing it (last 30 or so years).

I'd play "The Rockies" completely differently now.  Maybe not the shot I'd choose off the tee but certainly without the score card!  I'd certainly enjoy the shot more.  Next trip... I'll...
well, nice to dream isn't it?

I think we'd proliferate more golfers from enjoyment of the shots we hit instead of how close to (or below) par we can get our score.  The problem is getting the joy across instead of the "measurement."

Kip Patterson

[Doug Siebert]

Kip, I'm sure much of the lengthening of par 4s and 5s is to keep scores from being too low on courses with membership that is vain about their difficulty.  Kinda hard to brag on it when Joe NoName shoots -25 to win the RandomCorporateEntity Classic!

But I think ANGC, and a few others, are doing it for the right reasons, to preserve shot values.  How is it anything other than a putting contest when the long hitters are hitting wedge and the short hitters and hitting 8 iron on most of the holes?

I think the 4 minute mile analogy is flawed, the mile as a test of speed isn't devalued because runners run it 20 seconds faster today than they did 50 years ago.  The distance was arbitrary, if we were metric it would have been a kilometer run and they'd be flirting with the two minute barrier today.  For a course that used to test players to challenge bunkers off the tee and try to hold mid irons to the greens to have players flying those bunkers and hitting SW to the greens definitely does devalue the test, and no amount of growing the rough, firming up or speeding up the greens can bring back that particular aspect of the challenge, even if they manage to keep the scores from dropping.

[TEPaul]

"I had the greatest pleasure playing a "course" in the Westing Pasture on the Isle of Iona.  There are supposed to be holes out there but no cups, no pins and few indications of tees.  I had a routing that I obtained from the local hotel and sort of guessed at the directions.  What I managed to create was a re-creation of how the game probably started.  I'd pick out some spot and hit my ball up to it then hit it to the next one and so on.  Lots of wind and spitting rain got in the way becasue my hands eventually got really cold (impervious to the refreshment of a little single malt anti-freeze, no less) and I just walked around amazed at the beauty of the land.  It's a piece of basically untouched linksland, mowed and fertilized by the sheep flocks on it.  I highly recommend the experience.  Puts our American aerial game in considerable perspective."

Kip Patterson:

Did you really do that? That's one of the coolest descriptions I've ever heard after about four years on this website! I don't even have to introduce you to the extraordinary essays of Max Behr on this subject--the subject of "wild golf" and golf the "sport" rather than the limited and restricted golf of man's "game mind". It's all about nature's necessary part in the balance of golf played as a "sport" . Sounds like you've been there and have seen the "TRUTH!"

[TEPaul]

Kip:

I've never been to the Isle of Iona but my mother has. She's also been everywhere else in the world in her life except South America. She said not long ago of all the places she's been in her life the most moving of all was the Isle of Iona. She said there's something about it that goes right to your soul. What did you think? If you even remotely agree with that I think I'll have to see this place.

[A_Clay_Man]

But I think ANGC, and a few others, are doing it for the right reasons, to preserve shot values.  

Doug- I have never been to ANGC but I'd like to know what specific shot values your referencing?

I am familiar with Pebble and while I have not seen the most recent alterations in person, my sense is that both ANGC and PB (which implies other high ends will follow) are making fundamental mistakes that a freshman student would conceive.

What makes hitting an 8 iron into 13 on Sunday easy?

The game is easy. Playing well is hard. If playing well enough to win is still a test of physical and mental capabilities who's to say that 8 ron is any easier than a 4 wood.

[Doug Siebert]

Are you seriously arguing that due to the pressure, an 8 iron is just as easy an approach as a 4W?  The only thing you have to worry about with the 8 is not spinning it back into the creek, with the 4W you have a much smaller area where you can land it and be left with a birdie opportunity (nevermind an eagle chance)

We won't even get into how much harder a longer club is to swing well under pressure than a short one...

By saying "shot values", yes that was shorthand in that case for making sure that bunkers that were intended to be in play, you aren't hitting wedge to all the par 4s, etc.  By necessity since you can't move the treeline around you change some of the angles, some for better, some for worse.  But even if that's overall a negative its still worth it IMHO if they make players use more than half their bag to play 18 there!

[A_Clay_Man]

Doug- I'll stand by my own observations and those can be summed up this way:

Long and down the middle can be highly overated.

If Annika didn't prove that once again in the skins game I don't know what will. Her long wood approach to the first par 5 was a thing of beauty. While the boys never hit the green with irons. They all ended up with birdie which was not too surprising.

 But I feel, that to conclude what you are saying about the game, is to ignore the intanibles that make it great. How many times in the face of adversity do you deliver? And how many times long and down the middle do you falter? Looking at the pro game for answers to our golf, is like looking at 1% to decide for the majority.

The game is bigger than the same old argument about technology, an argument which has been going on since before the Haskell, I'm sure.

[Doug Siebert]

Hey, I was never saying that I never have any problems when I'm hitting a wedge to the green, and always mess up when I'm hitting a long iron instead.  Sure, its great when you sting that 3 iron from 225 and it flies high and lands softly by the hole.  And like everyone, I can stripe one long and straight and be left with a sand wedge into a long par 4, only to chunk it into a bunker, blast out, then manage to three putt for a double.  I've done that more times than I can count, and I'm sure I've got millions more left in me!  Sure, in some ways it is even sweeter to hit a great long iron close to the hole after you've just totally flubbed your drive and were mentally getting used to the idea you'd be lucky to manage par.

But it is silly to deny that the game is easier when you are hitting from closer to the hole.  Even if you hit your long clubs every bit as solidly and accurately as your short clubs, and course doesn't force carries so there is no problem with stopping the longer shots it is STILL an advantage being closer, simply because being 5 degrees offline from 100 yards leaves you a shorter putt than being 5 degrees off from 200.

If I'm understanding your position correctly, you are saying that unless you are sticking it really close, you are probably going to get down in the same number of strokes anyway, so it isn't really helping your score all much that being closer.  I'll grant you that.  I'd probably be within 2 or 3 strokes if I played two balls, one where you picked up my drive and dropped it 30 yards behind where I hit it, and another where you put it 30 yards ahead of where I hit it.  But it takes a lot of pressure off your game to be hitting from closer, putting from shorter distances where you are thinking about making it rather than getting it close enough to avoid a three putt, etc.  You aren't sweating over a lot of those 5 or 6 footers that can make or break a good round.

Your comment about delivering in the face of adversity is telling.  I like a good challenge.  And I suspect you do as well.  A course I can hit driver/wedge on every hole, even though I'm not good enough to actually deliver a solid drive down the middle every time to get that wedge shot, is less challenging to me than one where I know that I need a good drive just to be hitting a mid iron, and can't miss too badly or I won't be able to use an iron at all.

I remember when a 450+ par 4 used to challenge me to produce a good drive, and failure to do so often meant I couldn't get home.  Nowadays if I hit a good drive I'm looking at wedge, failure to produce a good shot means I'm just hitting the same club I would have had to hit 15 yeards ago after a good one!  I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, several guys I play with fairly regularly feel this way, and to pick someone from GCA, Brad Swanson and I had this very conversation after a round once, so I'll guess he'd back me up too.

The game of golf will always be challenging, I'm never going to shoot like Tiger, or even like some of the plus handicaps here in GCA, let alone live Hogan's expectation of birdieing all 18 holes (or his dream of aceing 17 of them and lipping out on 18)  But the challenge of the game is changing as the equipment changes, giving us more length, more resistance to wind (both especially with the driver)  It isn't as difficult as it used to be.  Even if I still end up with the same score because I'm not any better with a 25 foot putt than a 35 footer, or getting up and down from 10 yards away instead of 15, I'm not working as hard for the same score, not sweating it as much.

I'm sure you are right this has been going on for as long as the game has been changing.  But these recent changes are IMHO as big as the change from hickory to steel, if not quite to the extent of gutta percha to Haskell (not yet, at least)

[A_Clay_Man]

Doug- It would appear that I'm alone in my belief that golf is not a hard game. Its an easy one. Grant it, it's very hard to golf well consistently. Even at the pro level that's true. But honestly, why would/should anyone care what club Vijay hits in on Sunday. I'm positive he doesn't care what you hit and it don't say how on the scorecard.

Technology will never go backwards.

[Kip Patterson]

Sorry for the delays in my responses to your replies.  It's time for finals and I got to do that so I can graduate and go tend a nice course, properly.

The story about Iona is quite true and was a primal experince in my golfing life.  I'd love to find a way to translate that into other golfer's lives.  I do think that it would have been a bit more fun to have some kind of indication of greens and tees.  Maybe no routing or make up your own routing.  Not many people could be out there at a time to do it that way.  I had the place completely to myself and I probably could have had it to myself for the entire day if I could have managed to stay warm enough to play. Of course, you can see anyone wandering about from almost every spot on the property, so it might not be such a problem.  Maybe everyone has a colored flag and a walkie talkie-  "Heads up Red, we're coming in your direction."  Sounds rather lame, but what the heck.

I highly recomend the experience.  It is worth all the difficulty you have to go through to get there.

Hitting a shot and looking at white sand in your divot and realizing that you are standing on virtually virgin turfgrass is one of those mystical moments.

When I get some time, I'll have to look into wild golf.