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Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« on: August 05, 2023, 04:20:44 AM »
4BBB. Team A&B vs C&D


On this hole players B,C&D receive a shot.


B holes out for a 5 net 4.  A cannot beat this.


Team two decide C should putt next (even thought he's nearest the hole)  and he matches a 5 net 4. 
This leaves D with a putt for a 4 net 3.


Before D can putt, A declares he's further from the hole and that he intends to take his putt. He is asked to refrain as he can't beat a "4", so its practice, but he goes ahead, takes it and misses.


D makes his 4 net 3 to win the hole. (Thus no damage was done by the 'delay').


A was then told by his opponents they believe he was not entitled to practice until after the hole was concluded and he declares this "Rubbish" and walks away. (He didn't repeat this behaviour on subsequent holes).


So was this:
allowable as the objection was "Rubbish"?
an example of poor etiquette with no penalty?
a breach of rules with penalty?

I don't have access to the Decisions on the Rules and can't find this covered by online searches.  Thanks for help.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 05:14:24 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2023, 04:40:33 AM »
This is not a penalty. It is poor etiquette though.


Side AB had finished the hole so there is no penalty for practice.


See Rules 23.3c and 5.5b.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2023, 04:53:00 AM »
Thank you.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2023, 07:49:59 AM »
as a matter of interest, which team were you on ?


Niall

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2023, 02:53:34 PM »
Once a stroke has been conceded “the ball may be removed by anyone” (rule 3.2b) so presumably either C or D could have just picked A’s ball up.

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2023, 06:56:25 PM »
Once a stroke has been conceded “the ball may be removed by anyone” (rule 3.2b) so presumably either C or D could have just picked A’s ball up.


Correct.


Rule 23.6 does provide what to do when a player wants to putt-out a conceded putt to assist a partner.  In that case, the conceded putt is then the score the pair must accept.  But that is not the this situation.  Appears A either wants to make D wait, or just really wants the practice (or is such a bad putter thinks his "poor putt" could adversely impact D.  :) [size=78%]).[/size]


For this case, C&D should have picked up A's ball and tossed it to A.  At that point A has no standing - Team A&B have then "Completed" the hole.  Then only D has any standing to play next shot.  Once a shot is conceded the hole is completed for that player and any further play only falls under "practice" (which may or may not be allowed, based on the facts and if any model rules disallowing all practice or in effect).


If A nevertheless, still tried to putt-out, this could possibly then be a violation of Unreasonable Delay of Play (r 5.6A).  Per Rule 23.8a, if a breach of 5.6a hurts opponent's play both partner's receive the penalty. (1 stroke on first infraction).
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2023, 04:47:09 PM »
This would not be Unreasonable Delay. That is for doing something delays play for a considerable amount of time, not a few seconds it takes to hit a putt.  See the Clarification 5.6a/1 for examples.


This could fall under Rule 1.2a Condcut Expected of All Players.


It says:


Players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:…
Showing consideration to others – for example, by playing at a prompt pace, looking out for the safety of others, and not distracting the play of another player.


A should be spoken to about his action and told he shouldn’t practice until the other players have completed the hole.  If he were to continue to do this multiple times in spite of being told more than once to stop, the Committee could choose to Disqualify him (and his partner) under Rule 1.2a.






Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2023, 05:24:03 PM »
Ehh... I posted something here, but I think I know less about the rules than I previously thought.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2023, 05:44:27 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2023, 06:51:51 PM »
Am I understanding correctly that once B holed his putt and A could not beat that score, the hole is over for A/B and A's ball is no longer in play?


Or is A entitled to continue playing the hole until his shot is conceded?

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2023, 07:01:09 PM »
Am I understanding correctly that once B holed his putt and A could not beat that score, the hole is over for A/B and A's ball is no longer in play?


Or is A entitled to continue playing the hole until his shot is conceded?
This was most of my point from earlier that I removed. C&D should only be able to concede the putt, not argue that it shouldn't take place. Then when I was looking up the USGA rules... well, to be honest, there are a lot of contradictory things. The players are only required to disclose their handicap, but also required to understand where the strokes are given, but are also expected to know the score, but also expected to protect their own rights and interests.

This should lead to an incentive to bully the other team into agreeing to a player's favorable terms. If a conflict arises, and a player just refuses to agree to anything vague, what is the recourse? Are you just meant to stop playing? I'm mainly asking because this year in my match play tournament, the person I played against refused to play by the correct number of strokes, and I honestly didn't know what to do.

Tal Oz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2023, 10:10:53 PM »
Our resident JohnVDB answered it so I accept that as the ruling.


Perhaps I'm reading between the lines here a bit, but was player A putting for 4 or 5 and was intending on posting a score in addition to the match? I could see why in that scenario player A would want to putt out.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2023, 01:55:16 AM »
Our resident JohnVDB answered it so I accept that as the ruling.

Perhaps I'm reading between the lines here a bit, but was player A putting for 4 or 5 and was intending on posting a score in addition to the match? I could see why in that scenario player A would want to putt out.

The issue isn't putting out. The issue is waiting for the player(s) with a chance to effect the outcome of the match to complete the hole before practice putting. This is a very commonly accepted principle of matchplay. It's highly rude to require others to stand around watching you practice.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2023, 03:45:43 AM »

It's highly rude to require others to stand around watching you practice.

Ciao


Especially if they happen to be in the group behind and waiting to play.


Niall

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2023, 08:09:40 AM »
Dreadful etiquette by A, and something I've NEVER seen a player do in all the four ball play I've been in.  Everybody picks up their marker in A's situation, unless they want to wait until after to practice putting.

That said, I'm wondering why C & D didn't just concede his putt, at which point he can't putt until after the hole is completed.  That doesn't excuse A's behavior, of course.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2023, 08:22:42 AM »
Dreadful etiquette by A, and something I've NEVER seen a player do in all the four ball play I've been in.  Everybody picks up their marker in A's situation, unless they want to wait until after to practice putting.

That said, I'm wondering why C & D didn't just concede his putt, at which point he can't putt until after the hole is completed.  That doesn't excuse A's behavior, of course.


Not disagreeing, But if you are planning on posting a score you should wait until the other team has finished out. That's the problem with our handicap system. In BB you may hit shots and take chances you wouldn't do if you were playing your own ball but you are required to post.



If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2023, 08:39:32 AM »
Dreadful etiquette by A, and something I've NEVER seen a player do in all the four ball play I've been in.  Everybody picks up their marker in A's situation, unless they want to wait until after to practice putting.

That said, I'm wondering why C & D didn't just concede his putt, at which point he can't putt until after the hole is completed.  That doesn't excuse A's behavior, of course.


Not disagreeing, But if you are planning on posting a score you should wait until the other team has finished out. That's the problem with our handicap system. In BB you may hit shots and take chances you wouldn't do if you were playing your own ball but you are required to post.
There is a big difference between trying a shot that you might not try if you were playing your own ball because your partner is in great shape, or you don't get a stroke and the other players do, and so on, vs what A did.  And yes, while strategic shot decisions might perhaps very slightly skew the handicap results, that's a gate that swings both ways, doesn't it?  You also will elect, at times, to play more safely when your partner is out of the hole, or when your opponents are in trouble, or whatever.  Over time, in my experience (and I play a LOT of four ball net match play!) all of that washes.


All of that said, none of that has anything to do with A's actions here.  This not only was NOT a strategic adjustment because it was better ball net match play, but the USGA provides a guideline for the most likely score if you don't putt out in match play.  And even if he's going to putt out for purposes of posting a score, simple consideration of others would say that he waits until the hole is completed before he putts.  I've seen many, many times a player with a birdie putt leave his mark and then putt out for handicap purposes when his partner is already in with a birdie, but ALWAYS after everyone else has putted.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2023, 02:55:44 PM »
Given it was Tony that asked the question, I’m assuming the game was played in the UK, in which case the comments about A playing for his own score for handicap purposes are irrelevant - matchplay isn’t an acceptable format for submitting a score here. Neither does the “most likely score” rule apply.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2023, 03:28:22 PM »
Given it was Tony that asked the question, I’m assuming the game was played in the UK, in which case the comments about A playing for his own score for handicap purposes are irrelevant - matchplay isn’t an acceptable format for submitting a score here. Neither does the “most likely score” rule apply.


Do you post stableford?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2023, 03:33:01 PM »
Given it was Tony that asked the question, I’m assuming the game was played in the UK, in which case the comments about A playing for his own score for handicap purposes are irrelevant - matchplay isn’t an acceptable format for submitting a score here. Neither does the “most likely score” rule apply.


Do you post stableford?
Why wouldn't you?  Stableford is the same as regular stroke play with a maximum for net double bogey.  That's the same as stroke play with ESC applied, is it not?

A Stableford score is 108- number of strokes on a par 72 course.  That's assuming standard stableford scoring.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2023, 03:52:40 PM »
Given it was Tony that asked the question, I’m assuming the game was played in the UK, in which case the comments about A playing for his own score for handicap purposes are irrelevant - matchplay isn’t an acceptable format for submitting a score here. Neither does the “most likely score” rule apply.


Do you post stableford?
Why wouldn't you?  Stableford is the same as regular stroke play with a maximum for net double bogey.  That's the same as stroke play with ESC applied, is it not?

A Stableford score is 108- number of strokes on a par 72 course.  That's assuming standard stableford scoring.


Found this. Assume it's correct but may not be.

Maximum Strokes per Hole = Par of the hole + 2 shots + the number of strokes allowed to you on the hole according to your course handicap.
If you are an 18 handicapper, you can make a maximum of triple bogey every hole. If you score a 10 on a par 5, your score in the handicap system will be an 8.

18 handicap maximum score per hole is TRIPLE BOGEY = Par + 2 shots + 1 shot (handicap allowance every hole)
  • 36 handicap maximum score per hole is QUADRUPLE BOGEY  = Par + 2 shots + 2 shots (handicap allowance every hole)
  • Scratch golfer maximum score per hole is DOUBLE BOGEY = Par + 2 strokes + 0 strokes
« Last Edit: August 07, 2023, 03:59:15 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T? Rules Question. Matchplay....
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2023, 02:23:45 AM »
Given it was Tony that asked the question, I’m assuming the game was played in the UK, in which case the comments about A playing for his own score for handicap purposes are irrelevant - matchplay isn’t an acceptable format for submitting a score here. Neither does the “most likely score” rule apply.


Do you post stableford?


Yes. Stableford scoring is effectively the same as the “capped at net double bogey” rule.