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Dan Herrmann

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Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« on: October 05, 2010, 01:06:45 PM »
Ran notes the following on GCA.com's home page:

1949-1985: The dark ages of course design and few courses are profiled from this period. The vast majority of the courses built during the Trent Jones era were based on length, contain little variety and offer few options. Pete Dye led the charge out of this bleak period of bland courses after his trip to Scotland in the 1960s.

Does anybody have info on Dye's trip to Scotland?  Where did he visit, what was he looking for, and how did his discoveries translate into his designs?

Thanks!

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2010, 01:41:07 PM »
Dan,

Here's a good starting point:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2008-05/gw20080509hofdye

His autobiography, "Bury Me In A Pot Bunker" is a good read.



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Harris Nepon

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Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2010, 03:36:31 PM »

"I haven't drawn up a set of plans yet. I don't know how." Dye

I thought this was pretty interesting. i'm assuming it's not new to most on this site. Wondering how true it is. How common is that in the GCA world?

Always cool learning new things on here.


Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2010, 04:12:52 PM »
When 38-year old Pete Dye qualified for the 1963 British Amateur, he and Alice seized the opportunity to visit the great courses of Scotland.  He regretted his impetuous disparagement of the Old Course at St Andrews after a single round as a “goat ranch.” Seven rounds later, thanks to his strong showing in the event, he realized it was one of the world’s great tracks.  The Dyes used this inaugural overseas jaunt to study and play more than 30 Scottish classics.  This seminal visit helped clarify and articulate their vision of vibrantly memorable golf course designs. 
They were particularly impressed by the Old Course, Turnberry, Prestwick, Carnoustie, Royal Dornoch, Muirfield, Troon, Nairn, Gullane, Western Gailes, and North Berwick.  They came back to the Midwest eager to build courses with small greens and wide, undulating fairways.  They wanted to incorporate pot bunkers, railroad ties, and blind holes into their work, experiment with contrasting grass mixes, and add gorse like vegetation to frame fairways.
It’s probably no coincidence that Pete Dye’s inaugural masterpiece, Crooked Stick in Carmel, Indiana, was the first course he designed after his initial foray to the British Isles.  Up to that point, Dye had produced ten courses and made revisions on a dozen others.  But Crooked Stick, which the Dye’s refer to as their “firstborn,” truly put Pete on the map.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2010, 04:16:14 PM »
I played Prestwick with Pete once and when we got to the 18th, he claimed the ditch on that hole was his inspiration, saying that everything RTJ did was curves, and that proved you could do straight lines on a golf course.

Right from the source!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2010, 08:13:22 PM »

"I haven't drawn up a set of plans yet. I don't know how." Dye

I thought this was pretty interesting. i'm assuming it's not new to most on this site. Wondering how true it is. How common is that in the GCA world?

Always cool learning new things on here.



I saw Pete on No. 11 at The Ocean Course last week (he was reworking the left side of the green creating a collection area where a dune was.  He literally walked it out, feeling the ground with his feet and telling his assistants what he wanted.  Fascinating...

JNC Lyon

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Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2010, 08:21:27 PM »
Pete Dye's story in Bury Me in a Pot Bunker of his Scotland trip was a great one.  I remember his tale about going to play Dornoch.  Just as he and his wife were about to tee off, he saw two ladies headed toward to the tee.  He tried to beat them there, but his wife wanted to stop to take a picture of Donald Ross's brother, who was on the putting green.  As a result, the ladies teed off ahead of him.  Wanting to play through, Dye played the first 3 holes as quickly as he could.  When he got to the third green, he realized that the two ladies were now on the 7th hole.  A classic introduction to Scottish golf.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Peter Pallotta

Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2010, 08:39:13 PM »
Thanks for sharing that, Joel. I don't know the right word for it, but the 'openess' or 'beginner's mind' that the Dyes demonstrated back then is striking, i.e. they come back from their study tour eager to copy and/or transmute EVERYTHING they saw there.  Maybe that was the advantage of going in 1963; a younger architect today wuold, I imagine, limit himself to stealing one or two ideas so as to not appear amateurish.

Peter 

Anthony Gray

Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2010, 08:54:31 PM »


   What qualified him to become an architect?

  Anthony


Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2010, 09:27:52 PM »
Posted on: Today at 10:54:31 AMPosted by: Anthony Gray 

What qualified him to become an architect?

  Anthony


     It was 1955, five years into their marriage, when Pete first got entertained the idea of getting into golf course design.  Timing-wise, it was a curious decision.  From the early 1930s until the mid 1950s, course closures outnumbered openings by a ratio of three-to-one.  The stock market crash, the ensuing Depression, bank foreclosures, World War II, and the seizure of golf properties to make way for the burgeoning interstate highway system all contributed to the marked attrition of courses nationwide.   Pete was a successful insurance agent in Indianapolis at the time, having followed Alice into the field.  The Dyes had parlayed their local golf prominence into a thriving insurance business.   But despite his membership in the million-dollar roundtable, it was his membership at the Country Club of Indianapolis that veered him into an entirely different direction.

     Pete began using the club grounds as a living laboratory.  There were serious maintenance issues at the club, and as an enthusiastic greens committee chairman, he dove into the job full force. He transplanted saplings after disease killed off the elm trees.  He tinkered with bunkers and added curvature to fairway mowing patterns.  His interest piqued, he started commuting to classes at the Purdue University School of Agronomy, where he learned about grasses, turf, pesticides, and fungicides.  A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.  Pete managed to kill what little grass there was on some of his club’s fairways.  He built a “lifetime” bridge that collapsed in the first spring rain.  To his surprise, he was never kicked out of the club, or even removed as head of the committee, and with the encouragement of his wife, he remained undaunted as he attempted to forge a new career.

Matthew Sander

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Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2010, 09:35:41 PM »
One thing I get from Pete Dye courses that I think you probably get on the old courses of GB&I is visual uneasiness. I say this without having read his autobiography to gain a sense of what he truly gained from his travels, so take it with a grain of salt.

One aspect of the RTJ era is the predictable visuals you get from tee to green. Dye courses departed from those themes and use what I imagine are the visual principals on display in GB&I. Instead of using dunes, quirky landforms, or native vegetation to create the visual uneasiness (or what some call visual intimidation) his courses used/use angles, bunker placement, semi-blindness, and engineered slopes. In my experience with Dye courses, this usually works. His landing areas are often generous enough, but the preferred line or landing area is often obscured by crafted noise. While these visuals vary from what I assume he found traveling in Scotland, they largely achieve the same effect. The look that was created using these methods was entirely different from what was popular at the time.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2010, 09:50:37 PM »
Folks - this is great stuff.  Thanks for the replies!

Jim Nugent

Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2010, 01:40:22 AM »
So Pete never studied landscape architecture?  Did Mackenzie, or CBM, or Ross, or any of the other ODGs?

I've heard some of the archies on the board here recommend landscape architecture to people who want to become architects.  Is that more for certification reasons, or is the knowledge itself essential to turn out good courses these days?

Anthony Gray

Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2022, 07:40:56 AM »
So Pete never studied landscape architecture?  Did Mackenzie, or CBM, or Ross, or any of the other ODGs?

I've heard some of the archies on the board here recommend landscape architecture to people who want to become architects.  Is that more for certification reasons, or is the knowledge itself essential to turn out good courses these days?


 I always thought his elevated greens surrounded by sand were influenced by CBM.


 

Tom_Doak

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Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2022, 11:15:01 AM »

 I always thought his elevated greens surrounded by sand were influenced by CBM.


I just re-read his book the past few nights.


Pete mentioned repeatedly that in addition to Pinehurst No. 2 [which he played while in the Army] and Seminole [which he started playing when his family went to Delray Beach in the winter months], two of his biggest influences were Camargo, and the nine holes his dad built in Urbana, Ohio.


I have always thought the Urbana course showed influences of Raynor and Langford.  Meanwhile, Alice's family had a summer home on Lake Maxinkuckee, so one of the courses she played regularly was Langford's nine holes there, now known as South Shore CC.  I think it was one of the things she and Pete had in common, a fondness for those green site with steep slopes learned very early in their lives.


However, Pete typically did NOT build up greens; he dug out around them, to get the same effect without making the second shot uphill.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2022, 11:31:00 AM »
There's something earthy, something humble, about digging down, rather than building up. The anti-Icarus, it seems to me.
Coming in 2024
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2022, 11:39:00 AM »
There's something earthy, something humble, about digging down, rather than building up. The anti-Icarus, it seems to me.




Can't be right, because I am always building things out of cut, and Bill Coore likes to use fill, and he is famously much more humble than me.   ;)

Tom_Doak

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Re: Pete Dye's trip to Scotland in the 1960's New
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2022, 11:44:32 AM »
One of the really nice things about my relationship with Mr. Dye was that he wrote one of the letters that helped me get my scholarship to go to Scotland, and after I got back, he enjoyed seeing some of my slides of lesser-known courses I'd seen over there -- especially when I would find a hole that looked like something he would have built.


When we were doing the planning for the Stadium course at PGA West, there were several features that were based on one of my pictures:  Joe Walser and Ernie Vossler paid me for big prints of some of them, and had them hanging on the walls.  Better still, before they started construction, Pete took Lee Schmidt to the U.K., and besides the usual suspects they went to Cruden Bay and Brancaster and two or three other courses because of one of those pictures.


Pete was also desperate to name somewhere he had been that I hadn't.  "I bet you didn't go to Muir of Ord," he said, and damn it, I didn't!  It was not far off the old route to Dornoch, when you had to go way inland to get around the firth, but with the new bridges it is much further off the beaten path.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 11:46:50 AM by Tom_Doak »