[Ronald Montesano]

Have at it with examples.

[Tom_Doak]

Mine would be The Renaissance Club.


I turned down the job originally, but they kept asking me for two years, eventually convincing me that they really wanted me to build it.  And it was a great job for my associates to get to live in Scotland for awhile [like I'd done years before] and absorb more of what golf is all about.


Yet, it's not my best work by any stretch, and we just keep doing renovations on it to try and make it a worthy tournament venue.  When they spoke of hosting a tournament in the beginning, it was just going to be a one-off; I never imagined they'd wind up as a long-term venue, and it isn't optimal for that, especially the way they have to re-route it to have a two-tee start which involves some awful walks.


It's a good or very good course; but considering where it is, I wish it was one of my ten best courses, and it's not.  Of course, they can't all be, and it's not like it was one of my ten best properties to work with, either.

[Jeff_Brauer]

For most of us, these would apply more often than not:



The Land Didn't Speak to Me.....but the money did.


The Land Didn't Speak to Me.....but my associates begged me to let them do it on their own with minimal supervision.


The Land Didn't Speak to Me.....but that long promised job somewhere else really isn't going to come through NOW, is it?




More seriously, my question of TD's explanation would be "How do you know you can't make it a lot better without even trying?"  That said, I do understand how difficult it is to take a highly mounded golf course, and turn it into any resembling your own style.

[Jeff_Brauer]

As a corollary, years ago someone asked about the conditions it would take to turn down a project, and/or insist it was my way or the highway, and my response was "about the time my last kid gets out of college."


As another corollary, we had a phrase around the office of "The best project we didn't get."  That was, it was a project that was so beset by budget, permitting, flooding, or other problems that we were very glad it wasn't us that was selected.


Thinking back, the projects I turned down were the ones that were obviously underfunded, often undertaken by someone who had little real world golf experience in addition to lack of funds.  You start to get a sense of whether a project will be a problem child after a little while.  On a few occasions, as TD notes, that would just be a real dislike of the owner, getting bad vibes in the initial meeting, as well as not liking his land.

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
I think you know my situation is a bit different then some others.  I will say working on restorations/renovations is very different from designing brand new golf courses.  I have passed or walked away from numerous projects for a variety of reasons including, the superintendent has no interest it what we would like to do and/or how we would expect the completed project to be maintained, the selection committee already knows what they want so why are they hiring me and/or any other architect, they want a detailed plan before we are even hired,…, or simply timing with other projects underway.  I have never taken a project simply for the money but not everyone has that option. Gil just referred me to one a month or so ago (he passed on it).  I passed as well and referred it to someone else.  It happens as not all projects are a good fit for both sides and that is important for a successful project. 

[Joel_Stewart]

For most of us, these would apply more often than not:

The Land Didn't Speak to Me.....but the money did.

This should be the slogan for the ASGCA.


I heard a story about Jack Nicklaus first getting into the business in the 1970s and walking Shoal Creek.  He didn't see a golf course on the property and told Hall Thompson.  Apparently Hall Thompson was not the type of person you say no to and Hall told Nicklaus to get his ass back out there and find a golf course.

[Tom_Doak]

 I have never taken a project simply for the money but not everyone has that option.

Designers ALWAYS have the option to say no and pass on a project, and most of them should do it more often.  It really helps you clarify what your motivations are.


The notion that most people have to do whatever to advance their careers is disturbing to me.  It's used to justify all sorts of destructive [and sometimes unethical] decisions nowadays.  We are all lucky to be in a business we love.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I agree but this is a very tough and competitive business.  For some it is really hard to walk away from a project when they need the work to feed the family or else they have to change careers.  One of my previous partners had to do that.  He worked with me for a half dozen or more years on many different projects and he was a really good architect.  He hung on for a long time but eventually couldn't make it work for his family financially so he finally had to turn to civil engineering work instead.  Believe me he would prefer to be still doing GCA as he loved it. I wish I could still keep him busy (I could use him now)  but workload cycles up and down and some can't handle the slower times. 

[Mike_Young]

For most of us, these would apply more often than not:

The Land Didn't Speak to Me.....but the money did.

This should be the slogan for the ASGCA.


I heard a story about Jack Nicklaus first getting into the business in the 1970s and walking Shoal Creek.  He didn't see a golf course on the property and told Hall Thompson.  Apparently Hall Thompson was not the type of person you say no to and Hall told Nicklaus to get his ass back out there and find a golf course.

I just saw this in a speaker description for the GCSAA annual meeting:  " inducted into the prestigious American Society of Golf Course Architects, an honor held only by the most notable designers."    That gets me all confused...I will continue to strive to be prestigious and Notable

[Ronald Montesano]

You are prestigious and notable, although I usually reserve (my own foible) the adjective prestigious for possessions, not people.


I continue to recall an Alabama getaway in 2018, where we saved the best for last: your course in LaGrange. Talk about land that spoke to us, and tracing of holes that fit the property perfectly. Erik, Roger and I had a blast and talked about how we were happy it was our last, and not our first, course on the trek. Had things been reversed, we'd have found ourselves hearkening back with longing for the first inning.

[jeffwarne]

As a corollary, years ago someone asked about the conditions it would take to turn down a project, and/or insist it was my way or the highway, and my response was "about the time my last kid gets out of college."

LOL-I so thought this was true,
despite having a "redshirt" senior
and then the first of my twin girls got engaged.....

[Mike_Young]

You are prestigious and notable, although I usually reserve (my own foible) the adjective prestigious for possessions, not people.


I continue to recall an Alabama getaway in 2018, where we saved the best for last: your course in LaGrange. Talk about land that spoke to us, and tracing of holes that fit the property perfectly. Erik, Roger and I had a blast and talked about how we were happy it was our last, and not our first, course on the trek. Had things been reversed, we'd have found ourselves hearkening back with longing for the first inning.

Thanks Ronald.  I hope you know by now  I am a professional instigator and just did this to stir JB before the new year.  I'm not worried about whether someone describes me as prestigious or notable.  And thanks for the comments on The Fields...

[Jeff_Brauer]

For most of us, these would apply more often than not:

The Land Didn't Speak to Me.....but the money did.

This should be the slogan for the ASGCA.


I heard a story about Jack Nicklaus first getting into the business in the 1970s and walking Shoal Creek.  He didn't see a golf course on the property and told Hall Thompson.  Apparently, Hall Thompson was not the type of person you say no to and Hall told Nicklaus to get his ass back out there and find a golf course.

Say whaaa ?


I have never heard that story, but even if true, it turns out Jack did find a pretty nice course there, no?  This is why I say that, except in really extreme cases, you really don't know how good a golf course you can do until you try.  And, half of the extremes are owners, budgets, etc., rather than the land itself.  I mean, if it's all 50% slope, or only about 90 Acres when you need 200, yes, it is best to pass.  Although, I have had a few projects where the Owner did end up acquiring a bit more land to make it work after the project was started, which is again, having a reasonable owner, even if the land is unreasonable.


A professional golf course architect knows that the first priority to build a course for the owner is usually location, location, location (i.e., will there be anyone around to play it?) It is often written (even by the ODG) that the land quality is actually one of the lower priorities because if necessary, you can beat some character into it. 


TBH, this is sort of like this board's tendency to talk in terms of the top 100 courses, rather than courses as a whole.  Is it wise to pass up a project once in a while?  Sure, but for a guy wanting to make a living in gca, it really shouldn't be too often, maybe 1-2% of any project you go look at.  If you get to the top of the profession, it's great that you can turn away work, or give it to associates, but that happens only to a few.  For most architects, not getting enough leads is a much bigger problem than getting too many.  And most commissions have okay land, but not great.  What % of courses in the world are ocean front, for example?


I did have a young aspirant call me within the last year, and he had very little training, and he said he hoped he could work only on sandy, well drained sites, so he wouldn't have to worry about that part of it.  Good luck, kid.


Lastly, it's a small profession with a small circle of owners for that matter.  I always tell young architects to go interview for projects that they have no business getting because somehow, being in the process gives some credibility down the line.  By the same token, getting a reputation for walking away or quitting on projects will also follow you, and only the very top of the cream of the crop can overcome that.  Even then, I think it takes time.

[Jeff_Brauer]

As a corollary, years ago someone asked about the conditions it would take to turn down a project, and/or insist it was my way or the highway, and my response was "about the time my last kid gets out of college."

LOL-I so thought this was true,
despite having a "redshirt" senior
and then the first of my twin girls got engaged.....

While I was mostly being humorous, as usual, it just goes to illustrate that for anyone, the ability to act on purist principles varies across a career or a life.  Another thing that comes to mind that factors into whether a gca can function/survive as a gca is whether they have a spouse that works, and/or whether they have small children, or family members to take care of, etc.

[Jeff_Brauer]

For most of us, these would apply more often than not:

The Land Didn't Speak to Me.....but the money did.

This should be the slogan for the ASGCA.


I heard a story about Jack Nicklaus first getting into the business in the 1970s and walking Shoal Creek.  He didn't see a golf course on the property and told Hall Thompson.  Apparently Hall Thompson was not the type of person you say no to and Hall told Nicklaus to get his ass back out there and find a golf course.

I just saw this in a speaker description for the GCSAA annual meeting:  " inducted into the prestigious American Society of Golf Course Architects, an honor held only by the most notable designers."    That gets me all confused...I will continue to strive to be prestigious and Notable

Mike,  as you should!  Merry Christmas.

[Don Mahaffey]

Not every project is going to be on some super inspiring seaside sandy ground. I've learned to be incredibly grateful that I get to work on golf courses for a living and to be humbled anytime we are entrusted to open up ground on someone's golf course. And I've learned you can't be a part of the great ones if you aren't in business, and you aren't going to be in business if you don't keep your crew together. It may be different for designers and independent shapers, but when you have built a 25 person crew over 10 years, they are like family and you have to keep them together to be ready for the special projects...so we try to make every project special and we try to always be ready for the next great opportunity. Having said all that, I've learned the hard way to never ignore the red flags. It isn't the one you don't get that can hurt you.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Well said, Don.  TD is one of a handful of gca's with that luxury.


It brings to mind another factor - perhaps saying the land doesn't speak to you can only be done if you are envisioning "your type" of design.  Since there are a wide variety of designs out there, perhaps a gca needs to think about what kind of golf course might result on a certain site, even thinking outside our own typical thought process boxes.  What is the best type of course under the circumstances of the existing site, rather than what would one of my typical courses look like on this site?


Taking such a project, and allowing necessity to be the mother of invention might just yield one of your more unique projects ever


Again, TD admitted his statement that started this thread was a bit pretentious.  And, part of his reluctance was reworking a Fazio design, which might affect his perception as much as the land itself.  But the world will be denied the world's first look at a "Tom Tom" design as a result.  In the big picture, even if not successful, the renovation would have been interesting, LOL.

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
I don’t think most architects like redoing another living architect’s original work.  Would you agree?  I know one course I worked on was a Pete Dye course that he had completely redesigned.  I actually reached out to Pete to ask him about it before I submitted my plan/recommendations.  Pete told me to go for it as it was not one of his top high end designs. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mark,


I agree, and when it happens, I also reach out to the original architect.  I think we are all a bit wary of remodeling a relatively new course, especially if it was a top 1-3 tier architect.  If a course was done by some engineer who only did a few courses, none of us would have trouble substituting our design for theirs. 


It probably doesn't thrill TD as a "keep the original architect's intent" kind of guy to be asked to substitute his design for a Fazio.  It is also probably easier if the course in question is going through a business transformation, i.e., private to muni, as so often happens, which isn't the case at WW (at least I don't think)


Like everything else in gca, I guess the proper answer is, "It depends."

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