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Tim_Weiman

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Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« on: September 21, 2003, 12:31:51 PM »
Yesterday I spent a few hours walking The Country Club in Pepper Pike, courtesy of a friend who wanted to show me restoration work underway on the golf course. I should say from the outset that going to look at such a project would best include discussion with members of the project team. I didn’t have that opportunity, but did get a good look at the course and overall would have to give it a favorable report.

My host did share the fact that Brett Stinson (hope I have the spelling right) from IMG served as consulting architect and that McDonald & Sons was the outside contractor doing about half the work done with in house maintenance personnel doing the balance. Also, to the club's credit, the “project mission” appears to have been a true restoration with documentation of William Flynn’s original work serving as guidance.

FYI, I know Tom Paul spoke to some members about a year ago. So, maybe Tom can comment.

Anyway, the project involved several aspects including considerable bunker work. For those with McDonald’s work at Merion fresh in your minds I would note a point Tom Doak made to me while seeing Atlantic City Country Club last year: McDonald can do some very good work and you have to treat each project differently. I’d hardly call myself an expert on “Flynn bunkers” – again maybe Tom Paul or Wayne Morrison can chime in – but the bunker work looked pretty good to me, clearly an improvement over the last time I played the course maybe four years ago. Many were brought more into play and appear likely to effect playing strategy more. Interestingly, several bunkers were also removed that apparently weren’t part of Flynn’s original design.

Then, too, there appear to be many holes where width was returned to fairways, a feature that is bound to make the course more enjoyable for a wider range of players and introduce more playing angles for certain approach shots.

Country is not a club which seeks or receives much publicity, but I might mention a few things about the course generally. It is certainly built on a nice rolling property, almost perfect for a golf course. The architecture on display reflects the era it was built. You get the impression little dirt was moved and that Flynn spent his time trying to make the best of what existed before he got there. While Country won’t knock you out, there is a very graceful character about the place that makes it a very pleasant place to play golf.

I also want to mention that a couple par threes include the appearance of having very little green to hit a feature that probably makes them intimidating for infrequent visitors, though they are actually quite challenging, I would guess, for the members playing on a regular basis. Also, on several places throughout the golf course Flynn made use of gradual elevation change and I’m betting that lures many a player into club selection errors. I like that feature. I like how it makes one think.

A couple other points to note:

A few years back Country had a major irrigation project and it appears that more water is being put on the golf course than before, maybe too much. It may be a case of responding to pressure to make the course look more green and pretty.

Also, the project did include the introduction of blue grass rough in many areas throughout the course. I know from Sand Ridge that stuff can be tough. It can grind on you and eat away at your score more than you think it should. So, you have more width being introduced, but perhaps also more difficulty when the player strays off fairway and greens.

Was some length added to the golf course? Yes, on many holes there was. I would say it was very tastefully done. The new tees don’t stand out. There is nothing like the mountain built over at Oakmont (#4).

Finally, I should comment on the sand added to the restored bunkers. I’m familiar with this material as it comes from the Best Sand quarry adjacent to Sand Ridge and probably has a brighter appearance than I would prefer. But, the playing characteristics are worth highlighting more. This stuff is usually quite fine and can truly make bunkers hazardous. From a playing strategy point of view I like that quality.

I’ve long thought of myself as a bit anti country club, preferring the environment of pure golf clubs far more. But, Country is a really classy place that is very enjoyable to visit, play golf and have a nice meal. It also retains what have to be some of the finest shower heads in all the world of golf. Just don’t drink a beer first or you may never want to get out.
Tim Weiman

TEPaul

Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2003, 01:16:54 PM »
Tim:

I did go out to C.C. of Cleveland about a year ago for a few days and sort of a working architectural dinner complete with a ton of old Flynn plans and drawings with some members where I spoke about what I'd come to know about Flynn and particularly how to recognize some subtleties in his rather sophisticated plans and drawings (for that time). Frankly, Country already had many of his plans and hole drawings but the dinner talk and discussion of them was a good one. There were also some members there for the meeting from Elyria C.C. (another Flynn about 30 miles west).

C.C. of Cleveland is everything you described. The bunker restoration project was the thing we probably spoke most about. I read the very comprehensive restoration master plan from the IMG architect you mentioned and it seemed a very good one.

At that point, a year ago, I think they felt committed to that IMG architect but were either looking for or in the process of interviewing a series of contractors, including MacDonald & Co. I recommended Hanse or Forse if they'd work in that capacity and I distinctly remember not recommending MacDonald & Co or even recommending that they not hire them but they did hire them (shows how much anyone is willing to listen to a putz like me!).

Dave Gleason, the man who appears to have run the restoration project for the club is very comprehensive and stayed in touch with us about numerous little details about the bunkering restoration. He tried a number of times to get here to Philly to look over bunker restoration work around here but due to bizarre and continuous weather last spring could never get in--before their project got underway.

Basically, regarding MacDonald & Co. I just said I didn't think they were as adept at the finishing stages of recreating really good Flynn style bunkering as some of those I recommended, particularly the flatter or more low profile grass and surround look of some of Flynn's bunkering. Dave Gleason was also very insistant that the bunkers abut up very close to the green edges!

I saw and played with Dave Gleason's son, Mike Gleason at Glen View just the other day and Mike seemed particularly interested in the aspect of the "ideal maintenance meld" I spoke about and particularly the single aspect of "ideal" green surface firmness for a course of Country's design.

My recommendation to Dave Gleason as far as the overall "look" of the restored bunkering at Country is that they take care not to make it too rugged and rough looking in appearance as that might not fit well with the rest of the course--be out of place basically with the overall look of the rest of the golf course and club which as you can see is extremely clean in appearance!


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2003, 01:53:08 PM »
Tom Paul:

Thanks for adding the additional background. Dave Gleason had dinner at the table next to ours last night, but honestly my host was not aware of his central role and so we never spoke.

As you know, in the past I've made the distinction between the "project management" and "finished product" as a way of looking at golf course projects, the latter being easier because quite often one doesn't have access to all the people necessary to discuss the latter.

But, in the case of Country I'm inclined to want to hear more about why the club leadership felt inclined to go the true restoration route. Is it due to something unique about the individuals involved? Or is the restoration movement gaining ground?

As for the outside contractors involved, obviously Country has strong ties to IMG (and Best Sand) so it is not surprising that they went with Stinson. I don't say this to imply the matter is simply commercial or a case of having the "inside track". The "finish product" suggests everyone involved had their heart in the right place.

Regarding McDonald, I'm told Matt Shafer from Merion and formerly from Country itself put in a good word, but how much this influenced the decision I don't know.

In any case, the entire focus seemed to be on following Flynn's guidance right down to spending money to remove a lovely stone front to #10 green because while quite appealing, it wasn't part of the original design. That one decision may say more about the project than anything else.

Tim Weiman

TEPaul

Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2003, 02:02:10 PM »
Tim:

Again, I haven't seen the finished product because I haven't been there in a year but it was my sense that the Flynn restoration influence took hold at Country some time ago. Once intelligent and sophisticated members with clout in the club start discussing and intelligently analyzing things such as the old aerials and particularly the details of Flynn's extremely comprehensive construction plans good things in a restoration sense are probably bound to just start to evolve and flow. I think that's what happened at Country as it obviously has at Glen View, Kittansett, HVGC, Lehigh, Philly C.C., Brookline, Shinnecock, Indian Creek, Rolling Green, Lancaster, now Manufacturers, and probably a few other Flynn courses I'm not so aware of. That to me isn't coincidental but could be called the "critical mass" effect!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2003, 02:03:08 PM by TEPaul »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2003, 08:13:44 PM »
Tim,
During the Flynn Invitational I had lunch with three of their members.  They were very excited about the work on their course but had numerous questions about some of the intrepretation by their architect.  We had a good discussion.

I have not played it for five years and was invited out to see the changes.  One thing they mentioned was that they removed the fescue from around the bunkers.  I had always talked about their course and how I loved that look so I was disappointed to hear that.  I'm looking forward to getting back out there.  Maybe we could go play it together.
Mark

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2003, 06:52:58 AM »
I visited TCC this summer and came away extremely impressed with the plans and the work done thus far.  It is great to see a club which has embraced the restoration process and realizes what needs to be done to keep their gem shining.

I look forward to returning when the project is completed.
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

T_MacWood

Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2003, 08:38:07 AM »
Wasn't Mark McCormack a County Club member?

TEPaul

Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2003, 10:40:38 AM »
Tom MacW;

Yes he was. I understand there's probably a big IMG representation there. As you know Michael Hurzdan is also one who has a real connection there. I'm afraid though that a few of MH's redesign efforts there such as the fronting bunker on #2 are not now well thought of there.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2003, 11:22:12 AM »
Tom Paul:

Part of the project included making changes to the bunkers on #2. This includes both the bunkers that effect tees shots and those near the green.

The area in front of the green has been opened, I think, according to the original Flynn scheme and it will probably serve to "tempt" more. That is encourage more aggressive play, i.e., shots to the green.

When I played there several years ago I hit a good but not great tee shot and elected to lay up not wanting to possibly play a long bunker shot early in the round. With the restored configuration, I'd be more likely to have a go at the green and a more likely birdie.

I wasn't aware of Hurdzan previous input on this hole and it would be interesting to know what the thinking was. Did he want to make the second shot more penal? Were members in favor of doing so?

Now it seems like the hole would play a little more exciting with members standing on the tee thinking they've got a good shot to get the round off to a good start.
Tim Weiman

TEPaul

Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2003, 11:58:57 AM »
Tim:

In the opinion of those I spoke with at Country the Hurzdan bunker on #2 was obviously more penal and more aerial inducing--the very thing that Flynn probably did not want to encourage, at least as it related to one option to that green in two (or perhaps three!)---that of course being the ground game run-in option.

This is but one small example of some of the things that some say about the modern age of design which has the effect of both dictating shots and choices to golfers by both limiting and penalizing other reasonable options, choices and shots!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2003, 12:00:38 PM by TEPaul »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2003, 01:14:54 PM »
Tom Paul:

While less penal, the hole still requires two pretty good shots to reach the green in two. FYI, a bunker has been added to the corner of the dog leg - again according to Flynn's original - so one does need to think about how aggressive a line one wants to take.

Kind of funny really. Changes over the years to the Flynn plan took out a fairway bunker that made one give more thought to the line off the tee shot and  a bunker was added near the green to restrict the run up shot.

Now they have taken it back to the original plan!
Tim Weiman

gnixon

Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2003, 01:23:03 PM »
Tom,

There used to be a "Blind Pig" in the forest preserse next door to the Club. The trolley that used to come to Glen View from Evanston conveniently had a stop for those who needed a wee nip. Legend has it that on occasion members would never make it all the way to the Club. I suspect Flynn found much inspiration at this discreet prohibition oasis.

If you knew where you were going I think you would have found that there is a multitude of watering holes within a couple miles of Glen View.  :P  

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts.

Cheers,

Geoff

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2003, 07:48:39 PM »
Geoff,
Welcome to the party!  Glad to see you posting...how long have you been a lurker?  Next time Tom and I come out to a visit, please show us around the town--especially the watering holes.  Look forward to seeing you again soon.
Regards,
Wayne

gnixon

Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2003, 02:38:14 PM »
Wayne,

Just a couple days. Had to see what the real skuttle butt was on the Invitational. The guy from PCC wasn't to optimistic the other day was he?

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2003, 03:35:12 PM »
No, Geoff.  Afraid not.  But at least Chet thinks this is a nice event.  Once he understands that it is not necessarily a large number of golfers and would not be too disruptive, there may be a different consideration.  We certainly didn't inconvenience the Glen View membership and they went out of their way to tell us how happy they were that we were there.  We'll have a respectable Plan B just in case (Huntingdon Valley?).  
Regards,
Wayne

Michael Chadwick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2021, 12:07:54 AM »

Country is considering approval for an extensive renovation, this time to be done by Gil Hanse and the venerable cavemen, which would begin late summer 2022. The club is mentioned on Hanse Golf Design's website "Restoration" tab as of this year.


Country's parkland terrain appears to bear similar characteristics to one of Flynn's earlier designs, Lancaster, with the routing making extensive use of a brook meandering through the property. Though Country has long been known for being heavily treed, a historic aerial from the late 30's reveals how open certain areas of the course once was, and the master plan--as is the case with most golden age restorations--addresses tree removal, fairway and green expansion, and notably at Country bunker scale and visual tie-ins with green complexes, which, again based on historic photos, strike me as some of Flynn's most beautiful bunkering work.


A small anecdote I thought was interesting from Wayne Morrison's recent podcast with Andy Johnson of the Fried Egg: apparently Mr. Hanse's gridded diagrams he uses for drawn to scale renderings of hole designs is a style inspired from Flynn's own hole diagrams. 
Instagram: mj_c_golf

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2021, 07:58:02 PM »
Would be very interested to hear how this pending restoration butts up against the restoration this thread was created to discuss a mere 20 years ago...


Also, and more importantly...gotta love a little Tom Paul appearance.

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn Restoration: Country in Cleveland
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2021, 01:59:27 PM »

Country is considering approval for an extensive renovation, this time to be done by Gil Hanse and the venerable cavemen, which would begin late summer 2022. The club is mentioned on Hanse Golf Design's website "Restoration" tab as of this year.


Country's parkland terrain appears to bear similar characteristics to one of Flynn's earlier designs, Lancaster, with the routing making extensive use of a brook meandering through the property. Though Country has long been known for being heavily treed, a historic aerial from the late 30's reveals how open certain areas of the course once was, and the master plan--as is the case with most golden age restorations--addresses tree removal, fairway and green expansion, and notably at Country bunker scale and visual tie-ins with green complexes, which, again based on historic photos, strike me as some of Flynn's most beautiful bunkering work.


A small anecdote I thought was interesting from Wayne Morrison's recent podcast with Andy Johnson of the Fried Egg: apparently Mr. Hanse's gridded diagrams he uses for drawn to scale renderings of hole designs is a style inspired from Flynn's own hole diagrams.


Lancaster's property is closer to Rolling Green than Country. Country is pretty gentle compartively speaking. There is enough movement to be interesting, but it is not as severe as Lancaster's back nine (or all of Rolling Green) which makes for a better golf course than either, IMO. Country is really good now.

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