News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #100 on: July 01, 2021, 08:25:36 AM »
I learned as a club pro the handicap system is screwing us all.  I remember putting scorecards together for matches and each player or team would walk in separately, assess the situation, and proclaim they had no chance to win. 



What would your perspective have been if every player had assessed the situation and proclaimed that they had a great chance to win?


If everyone in the field believes their chances are nearly the same, both positive or negative, does that not mean the handicap system properly balanced the field? Someone had to have won the match play tournament, even if at the start they didn't think they had any chance.


Isn't that the intention of the system as a whole?

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #101 on: July 01, 2021, 08:58:02 AM »
Curious to know if many folks in countries where the new hcp system is a radical change to what they’ve long been used to are submitting scores for every round or just rounds in formal club etc competitions?
Atb

I have submitted one score, the only comp I played. Not gonna bother posting casual round golf. I do note that a lot if younger guys I know are posting casual rounds.

Ciao


What's the rule over there? Are you not expected to post all rounds?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #102 on: July 01, 2021, 09:03:50 AM »
Reading through this discussion, The two big factors of contention that I've picked up on is the idea that the handicap represents potential and 2 players with similar handicaps could have wildly different score dispersions.


If you have a player A who carries a ~4 handicap and their scores range from 76-80, and a player B who also carries a ~4 handicap but their scores range from 73-86 the handicap system may view them as equal.


But presumably the larger scoring dispersion for the player B gives them an advantage in head to head play. Over a 10 round series, player A will score in the 76-80 range 10 times while player B will record ~4 times in the same range, and ~6 times in the outlier ranges. Those 4 matches in which both players are performing in the same range would be expected to be tightly contested and statistically considered a draw. The remaining 6 matches will be determined by player B's outlier play. Even then he could average a score of 79 over those 6 matches, a higher average than player A, and still win as long as 4 of those scores are 75's. The more matches these two players play, the more it may even out, but if these two players played once, B would have the advantage.


In the case of player B, the larger dispersion helps to neutralize his potential scoring higher than player A. B has a greater potential to go lower, but his higher scores drag the statistical potential back, making the two players appear to be equal on paper.
Using partial handicap in a tournament can help to negate the potential scoring variation between two players, but even then a blanket handicap reduction is unfortunately not applied equally. In this case, the handicap should most likely need to be two numbers, the index and some variability/dispersion factor. For player A this variability factor would be smaller than player B and could be used to properly adjust the handicap differential when they play. While the index system can recognize trending of a player, the variability could as well. As a player improves, scores that were previously viewed as extreme outliers become normalized and their variability tightens as their index drops. At the same time, a player who has not played in a while and posts scores much higher than their index would have their variability grow in a negative direction, allowing for more leeway in a match.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #103 on: July 01, 2021, 09:24:56 AM »
Under the World Handicapping System Rules of Handicapping, eligible scores (which are essentially all scores) are to be submitted as soon as possible after the round is completed.  This assures that any adjustment for playing conditions under Rule 5.6 will be reflected.  If a player chooses to submit only certain scores he/she is not in compliance.  As for the numerous scenarios advanced in this thread, the system was the work of an international committee which took several years to formulate it.  I am personally acquainted with one of the contributors so I can appreciate the amount of work involved.  Given the need to reconcile competing systems, compromises were made.  No one suggests that the system is perfect and I suspect that there is no way to absolutely prevent those who want to game the system from doing so.  However, I am reasonably certain that the mathematical permutations discussed were vetted and the resulting system was the best effort to balance fairness with practical reporting and administrative concerns

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #104 on: July 01, 2021, 10:00:23 AM »
 8)  SL_S,


I have no question that those responsible for the rules of handicapping have golf's, if not everyone's best interest at heart.


But mathematics being what it is, of big data and big averages, etc., once the methodology and equations are set for balancing things, those with inquiring minds want to know "what-if," and unfortunately many of those folks seek to game the system.


I think the practical reporting issues swamp the system, as often said, how many really play by the rules of golf and do the other witnesses in a postable round really hold folks to the rules of golf?  That problem will never be solved, so we play on, for better or worse.  Just choose your bets wisely!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #105 on: July 01, 2021, 11:16:16 AM »
...
If you have a player A who carries a ~4 handicap and their scores range from 76-80, and a player B who also carries a ~4 handicap but their scores range from 73-86 the handicap system may view them as equal.

Presumably player A has approximately a 78 average, and presumably player B has a 79.5 average.

... if these two players played once, B would have the advantage.

Given the averages, most likely Player A will shoot 78, and Player B will shoot 79 or 80. It seems to me that in a single match Player A will have the advantage.

...
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #106 on: July 01, 2021, 11:34:29 AM »
...
If you have a player A who carries a ~4 handicap and their scores range from 76-80, and a player B who also carries a ~4 handicap but their scores range from 73-86 the handicap system may view them as equal.

Presumably player A has approximately a 78 average, and presumably player B has a 79.5 average.

... if these two players played once, B would have the advantage.

Given the averages, most likely Player A will shoot 78, and Player B will shoot 79 or 80. It seems to me that in a single match Player A will have the advantage.

...


Over a large number of matches, the more consistent player will win more, but for a single match, the consistency of A can be overshadowed by the ability of B to shoot a lower number. A is probably the favorite, but I’m not sure who I’d bet on for one round.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #107 on: July 01, 2021, 11:51:40 AM »
Curious to know if many folks in countries where the new hcp system is a radical change to what they’ve long been used to are submitting scores for every round or just rounds in formal club etc competitions?
Atb
I have submitted one score, the only comp I played. Not gonna bother posting casual round golf. I do note that a lot if younger guys I know are posting casual rounds.
Ciao
What's the rule over there? Are you not expected to post all rounds?
My understanding is no. If ‘over here’ you play in a formal competition then I believe your score will automatically count towards your hcp index. If however, you wish to post a score in general casual play then I believe you must indicate on the computer system in advance of teeing off that you intend to post a score.


‘Over here’, and I believe in some other countries with historical British affiliations too, golf is and always has been essentially Club and Club competition orientated, not so much pay-n-play or muni ‘over here’, and hcps have long been calculated via formal competition play so I guess the current position is a historical holdout. Be interesting to see what happens in the long term though.

So much for a unified ‘World’ hcp system when it appears that different countries are permitted to interpret things differently. Oh well, each to their own.
Atb

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #108 on: July 01, 2021, 10:21:26 PM »
This week my club had a two 9 handicaps shoot net 60 and net 62……
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #109 on: July 01, 2021, 10:35:49 PM »
This week my club had a two 9 handicaps shoot net 60 and net 62……


There's a name for 9 handicappers who shoot 69.


Especially under the new system where par is baked in to your course handicap.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #110 on: July 02, 2021, 08:15:53 AM »
This week my club had a two 9 handicaps shoot net 60 and net 62……


There's a name for 9 handicappers who shoot 69.


Especially under the new system where par is baked in to your course handicap.


YUP
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #111 on: July 02, 2021, 08:48:14 AM »
This week my club had a two 9 handicaps shoot net 60 and net 62……
Three questions:

1. Has this happened before with these particular two golfers?  Is there a pattern?

2. Do these two players post all of their scores?  Is the club's handicap committee checking their posted scores against the tee sheet?


2. If the answer to #1 above is "Yes", and/or the answer to #2 above "No", then what does your club plan to do about it?  What has the club done to deal with similar situations in the past?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #112 on: July 02, 2021, 09:04:51 AM »
Given the averages, most likely Player A will shoot 78, and Player B will shoot 79 or 80. It seems to me that in a single match Player A will have the advantage.



Averages are hard to apply to a single match, scoring distribution and variance is much more applicable to estimate an outcome.


Lets consider both players have played 20 rounds this year, all rounds have been played on the same course from the same tees (72/130). Player A's 20 scores are made up of an even distribution of scores from 76-80. Player B has at least 1 round recorded from 73-86, with the majority of his rounds in the 76-80 range. Player A's average is better, 78 vs. 79.3, but they both have the exact same handicap index of 4.17.


Because player B has recorded scores of 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, & 86, and player A's highest score is 80, we know that player B's average is being dragged down by their highest scores and if player B plays poorly they will always be beaten by player A. But since those scores are not in player B's top 10 they are not used to calculated his handicap.


Also because player B has recorded scores of 73, 74, & 75, while player A's lowest score is 76, we know that if player B plays to their potential they will always beat player A.


Now, since player A's lowest score is 76 and player B has at least 4 scores in their handicap equal or better to 76, we also know that player A's median score is lower than player B's median score. So even within the 10 scores used to calculate each players handicap player B has a higher level of variance than player A. Player A's handicap scores equal 77 +/-1 while player B's handicap scores equal 76+/-3.


Because of the variance in B's scoring compared to A's scoring, if B plays below average they have less than a 10% chance to win the match. At the same time, if they play above average they have nearly a 60% chance to win the match. And if they play well they have nearly a 90% chance to win the match.


On the other hand, player A's consistency always keeps them in the match. Even if they play average they have nearly a 60% chance to win. This is the factor that tells you to bet on A in the long run. If the contest is a 36 hole match, A is the favorite. But in one lone 18 hole match its not so cut and dry.


The form of player B will make all the difference. When where their scores in the low 80's posted vs. when were their scores in the mid 70's? If their recent scores were better than their older scores, they are a player trending down vs. if their recent scores were higher. Now, if their recent scores included both low 80's and mid 70's rounds, then the match would simply be a coin flip.


Rather than just rolling scores out of the handicap range, each score in the handicap range should be weighted to some degree based on when it was shot. The most recent score taken at 100% value and each following score discounted by some rate.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #113 on: July 02, 2021, 11:53:24 AM »
This week my club had a two 9 handicaps shoot net 60 and net 62……
Three questions:

1. Has this happened before with these particular two golfers?  Is there a pattern?

2. Do these two players post all of their scores?  Is the club's handicap committee checking their posted scores against the tee sheet?


2. If the answer to #1 above is "Yes", and/or the answer to #2 above "No", then what does your club plan to do about it?  What has the club done to deal with similar situations in the past?


Both scores have been posted. One is a new member. There is a pattern with the other.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #114 on: July 02, 2021, 04:53:03 PM »
This week my club had a two 9 handicaps shoot net 60 and net 62……
Three questions:

1. Has this happened before with these particular two golfers?  Is there a pattern?

2. Do these two players post all of their scores?  Is the club's handicap committee checking their posted scores against the tee sheet?


2. If the answer to #1 above is "Yes", and/or the answer to #2 above "No", then what does your club plan to do about it?  What has the club done to deal with similar situations in the past?


Both scores have been posted. One is a new member. There is a pattern with the other.
Rob,

I suppose the obvious question for the guy with the pattern is why the club allows it.  Depending on how he is gaming the system, there are several fixes, but somebody has to step up and deal with it.  Allowing the guy to continue the pattern and then blaming the handicap system is futile.
 
I'll offer this example, though, as food for thought.  One of my best friends is a regular golf partner; we play a $3 Nassau every Sunday morning and most Thursdays, and we've partnered in both interclub matches and CGA four balls.  Our indexes are similar; there's rarely more than a stroke difference, regardless of which of us has the lower index.  His index usually hovers around an 8 or so.  He's been a golfer all his life, including college golf; he's now 73, and plays twice a week with usually one practice session thrown in.  EVERY round that we play is played fully under the Rules, and I would swear in court that his index is completely accurate.

In the month of May, he broke 80 three times, with a low round of 77.  His low differential in May was a 6.6.  In a four ball with me on May 24, he shot 85, and on June 3, he shot 83 and lost money to me.  On Friday, 6/4 he had a lesson with our head pro, who has seen him for many, many years.

So he went to Florence, SC for the CGA Super Senior Championships, held on June 7 and 8 on a course he had never seen before a practice round.  He shot 2 under 70 the first day; first time he had EVER shot his age, and the first time he had ever broken par in a competitive round.  The second day, he went out in 39 and came in in 34 for 73; he finished T2 one shot back, and is now the 29th ranked 70+ golfer in the Carolinas!  His differentials those two days were 1.2 and 4.0; there was no net division in the tournament, but if there had been, his net scores would have been absurdly low, and he might have had to fight his way to his car thru angry old guys calling him a sandbagger.

FWIW, in his next round on our home course, he shot 77, and in a CGA individual tournament on Monday, he shot another 77 with a differential of 10.2. 


Weird stuff happens when you take a macro system and apply it to micro situations. 





"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #115 on: July 02, 2021, 07:18:13 PM »
This week my club had a two 9 handicaps shoot net 60 and net 62……


That's what I'm talking about.  The odds of that happening just once in that HC range?

1 in 84,300

And two different players did it.... In the same week? 


 ::) ::) ::)




Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #116 on: July 03, 2021, 04:11:20 AM »
Curious to know if many folks in countries where the new hcp system is a radical change to what they’ve long been used to are submitting scores for every round or just rounds in formal club etc competitions?
Atb

I have submitted one score, the only comp I played. Not gonna bother posting casual round golf. I do note that a lot if younger guys I know are posting casual rounds.

Ciao


What's the rule over there? Are you not expected to post all rounds?


Not as far as I know. I can't be bothered with faffing about over a number. I am a hack who plays for peanuts and rarely enters comps. I don't see the point in slavishly posting all scores. Worse, I don't see the point in making up scores for holes I didn't complete.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #117 on: July 03, 2021, 08:27:04 AM »
Curious to know if many folks in countries where the new hcp system is a radical change to what they’ve long been used to are submitting scores for every round or just rounds in formal club etc competitions?
Atb

I have submitted one score, the only comp I played. Not gonna bother posting casual round golf. I do note that a lot if younger guys I know are posting casual rounds.

Ciao


What's the rule over there? Are you not expected to post all rounds?


Not as far as I know. I can't be bothered with faffing about over a number. I am a hack who plays for peanuts and rarely enters comps. I don't see the point in slavishly posting all scores. Worse, I don't see the point in making up scores for holes I didn't complete.


Ciao


That’s an interesting description. Any exercise that refers to “slavishly faffing about” gives me pause. ;)

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #118 on: July 03, 2021, 07:12:40 PM »
Sean,  Why do you want a handicap index?  You state that you play with your friends.  Playing with the same group regularly should mean that you all know each others' games and should be able to decide how many strokes are needed to balance the match.  You don't play for much money so there is little incentive to "sandbag".  Finally, you don't care about entering competitions.  But the system is intended to balance competitions, particularly for those who are unfamiliar with the games of their competitors.  It becomes important in betting games and in handicap competitions.  So if you don't want to bother with observing the seemingly oppressive requirements of turning in scores or requiring that partial scores be reported so as to prevent a "sandbagger" from avoiding reporting inconvenient rounds by skipping holes or failing to finish, you should opt out.  You can continue to do what you like, just don't expect those trying to administer a system for everyone to change for your convenience.


As to weighting scores by age, I suggest that is an open invitation to sandbaggers.  At least where 20 scores are considered, the sandbagger has to work at it over a period of time.  Under that suggestion, does one continue to count only the best 8 of 20?


Any system that relies on self reporting is susceptible to those with larceny in their hearts.  Peer review and handicap committees are attempted solutions but have limited efficacy.  We are back to golf being a game of honor and, unfortunately, not everyone understands that core value.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #119 on: July 03, 2021, 07:58:14 PM »
Sean,  Why do you want a handicap index?  You state that you play with your friends.  Playing with the same group regularly should mean that you all know each others' games and should be able to decide how many strokes are needed to balance the match.  You don't play for much money so there is little incentive to "sandbag".  Finally, you don't care about entering competitions.  But the system is intended to balance competitions, particularly for those who are unfamiliar with the games of their competitors.  It becomes important in betting games and in handicap competitions.  So if you don't want to bother with observing the seemingly oppressive requirements of turning in scores or requiring that partial scores be reported so as to prevent a "sandbagger" from avoiding reporting inconvenient rounds by skipping holes or failing to finish, you should opt out.  You can continue to do what you like, just don't expect those trying to administer a system for everyone to change for your convenience.


As to weighting scores by age, I suggest that is an open invitation to sandbaggers.  At least where 20 scores are considered, the sandbagger has to work at it over a period of time.  Under that suggestion, does one continue to count only the best 8 of 20?


Any system that relies on self reporting is susceptible to those with larceny in their hearts.  Peer review and handicap committees are attempted solutions but have limited efficacy.  We are back to golf being a game of honor and, unfortunately, not everyone understands that core value.

I am content to post scores on my terms...which is when I play in proper comps with scores properly attested and checked. It's exactly what I did in the US 25 years ago and nothing has convinced me to change. It's how all handicap scores should be administered. There is such a thing as throwing the baby out with the bath water. I don't care about how the handicap is calculated, but I can't abide by a guy keeping his friendly, don't hole out score and posting it without proper attesting. My handicap is proper.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2021, 11:19:09 AM »
... But since those scores are not in player B's top 10 they are not used to calculated his handicap.

... So even within the 10 scores used to calculate each players handicap player B has a higher level of variance than player A. Player A's handicap scores equal 77 +/-1 while player B's handicap scores equal 76+/-3.
...
Handicaps are the average of the best 8 of 20 scores.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back