[Matt_Cohn]

I noticed that the men are playing the course about 950 yards longer than the women did last week, and at a par of 70 instead of 72. Relative to par, the scores seem similar.

[Tim Gavrich]

I'd be curious to know where most players on NCAA Championship-qualifying teams would rank the host site among all the courses they got to play in competition in a given season.

[Kalen Braley]

Didn't want to start a new thread, but i'm curious, are caddies banned in NCAA golf tournaments?

Given caddies are in the rules of golf, I would think at least some of the players would take them?

[Matt_Cohn]

Caddies are not allowed.

[JohnVDB]

Didn't want to start a new thread, but i'm curious, are caddies banned in NCAA golf tournaments?

Given caddies are in the rules of golf, I would think at least some of the players would take them?

Caddies are not permitted in the NCAA.  Each team can have two coaches assisting players, but they are not even allowed to touch or carry the clubs.  If a player is competing as an individual rather than part of a team, his or her coach can assist in all ways except deal with the clubs. 


Up until a few years ago, trolleys were not allowed either, but that was changed and most of the women use them while most men don’t.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Up until a few years ago, trolleys were not allowed either, but that was changed and most of the women use them while most men don’t.

Don't they do a lot of damage to the course?

[Matt_Cohn]

I have to say, it’s been a better host site than I expected. I thought it would be too soft to test for the men. But between some rough, very firm greens, and the desert that’s been in play from time to time, it looks like a good test that really rewards smart play and controlled iron shots.

[Kalen Braley]

Didn't want to start a new thread, but i'm curious, are caddies banned in NCAA golf tournaments?

Given caddies are in the rules of golf, I would think at least some of the players would take them?

Caddies are not permitted in the NCAA.  Each team can have two coaches assisting players, but they are not even allowed to touch or carry the clubs.  If a player is competing as an individual rather than part of a team, his or her coach can assist in all ways except deal with the clubs. 

Up until a few years ago, trolleys were not allowed either, but that was changed and most of the women use them while most men don’t.

So my next question is why?  I can't think of any other NCAA sport where athletes are denied help as it explicitly pertains to the playing of the game...and are actually written into the rules of the game.

Its clearly not an amateur status thing as they have caddies at other amateur events.

[Matt_Cohn]

I don't think there's another NCAA sport where people other than players, coaches, and trainers are on the field of play.


But how would a caddie system even work?


Would the teams pay for caddies at $100-$150 per player, per round, per tournament? That would be $2,000 to $3,000 per team per regular tournament, or much more for a longer NCAA Championship. I know Oklahoma State has money, but Sam Houston State might not.


And most of the courses they play at don't have caddies anyway. So who would the caddies be? The other players on the team (so schools pay for for another five guys to fly, stay in the hotel, eat, etc., while missing school)? Or would the players have to find whoever is willing to pay their own way—parents, siblings, friends? That doesn't seem good for competitive equity.


There are some tournaments, like the occasional Stanford match play tournament at Cypress Point, where the players have to take caddies because of where they're playing. The teams pay for those. But again, those are small events at clubs that have a caddy program. I don't think Grayhawk or La Costa have 156 caddies ready to go.


In short, I don't see how it could possibly function in a good way.

[Matthew Petersen]

I don't think Grayhawk or La Costa have 156 caddies ready to go.

At Grayhawk, the caddie system is the cart fleet.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't think there's another NCAA sport where people other than players, coaches, and trainers are on the field of play.

But how would a caddie system even work?

Would the teams pay for caddies at $100-$150 per player, per round, per tournament? That would be $2,000 to $3,000 per team per regular tournament, or much more for a longer NCAA Championship. I know Oklahoma State has money, but Sam Houston State might not.

And most of the courses they play at don't have caddies anyway. So who would the caddies be? The other players on the team (so schools pay for for another five guys to fly, stay in the hotel, eat, etc., while missing school)? Or would the players have to find whoever is willing to pay their own way—parents, siblings, friends? That doesn't seem good for competitive equity.

There are some tournaments, like the occasional Stanford match play tournament at Cypress Point, where the players have to take caddies because of where they're playing. The teams pay for those. But again, those are small events at clubs that have a caddy program. I don't think Grayhawk or La Costa have 156 caddies ready to go.

In short, I don't see how it could possibly function in a good way.

Matt,

There already is a ton of competitive inequality in other college sports, especially for Football and Basketball, where some schools have massive resources to fund top notch coaching, tutors, facilities, travel, equipment, several assistants, etc that provide a huge competitive advantage when playing against smaller/lesser schools. And it allows them to recruit the best players, for teams like Alabama for Football...but no one seems to have a problem with that arrangement.

A caddy system could work much the same way, in that if the school wanted to provide caddies then fine, or players could use a family member or friend who comes along to the tournament.  Hell I caddied for my neighbor a number of years back in a couple of Utah amateur events.  I helped with the usual stuff as well as provided yardage and input on a few risk/reward holes...and he was very grateful!

In a high stakes tournament in Arizona at the end of May, in near triple digit heat, even if it was just someone carrying the clubs, and raking the bunkers, you don't think that would be a huge help in conserving energy and allowing the player to better focus? And we already see family members and friends caddying for players in high profile amateur tournaments and even on occasion on the PGA Tour (Stewart Cink's son caddies for him)

So I don't see the reason why caddies should be banned at the NCAA level, even if some players/teams may be at a disadvantage or even not use one. And of course the player is still on the hook if their caddy fucks up, just like that high profile incident last summer at the US Am at Bandon.

[Matt_Cohn]

I mean, none of your points are wrong. It just sounds terrible to me.

[Tim Leahy]

I mean, none of your points are wrong. It just sounds terrible to me.

Looks like your alma mater against mine for the title, Okl vs.Pep. I am rooting against AzSt since they have the home course advantage. Done deal.
Good luck tomorrow, roll Waves!

[Matt_Cohn]

I mean, none of your points are wrong. It just sounds terrible to me.

Looks like your alma mater against mine for the title, Okl vs.Pep. I am rooting against AzSt since they have the home course advantage. Done deal.
Good luck tomorrow, roll Waves!

Consider it the battle of coaches whom I played against in junior golf but were better than me.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Tim Leahy]

I mean, none of your points are wrong. It just sounds terrible to me.

Looks like your alma mater against mine for the title, Okl vs.Pep. I am rooting against AzSt since they have the home course advantage. Done deal.
Good luck tomorrow, roll Waves!

Consider it the battle of coaches whom I played against in junior golf but were better than me.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Actually we have some things in golf in common. We both played for our college golf teams and you were runner up for the NCGA men's championship at Spyglass while I have played Spyglass.

[Matthew Petersen]

I mean, none of your points are wrong. It just sounds terrible to me.

Looks like your alma mater against mine for the title, Okl vs.Pep. I am rooting against AzSt since they have the home course advantage. Done deal.
Good luck tomorrow, roll Waves!

Tim, as an Arizona alum I was certainly not cheering for ASU either, but I should point out that while they were the host school, Grayhawk is certainly not their home course. They have played out of Papago GC for the past few years since the on campus Karsten course was shuttered.


And, I believe, there are actually rules restricting teams from playing at Grayhawk to prevent getting overly familiar with the course (those rules might be changing in the future, but I think were in place this year at least). Though many of the competitors will have played some junior events there in the past s they will have some familiarity with it.

[Phil Burr]

Rules restricting teams from playing championship host venues such as Grayhawk as their home course must be recently adopted.  I doubt OSU stopped using Karsten Creek as its home during years the NCAA Championship was held there.  Same thing for Arkansas & Blessings, Oregon & Eugene CC, etc.  Are those course now out as potential hosts?

[JohnVDB]

Here are the NCAA Rules on playing the championship course:


https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/golf/d1/common/2019-20D1XGO_CourseAccess.pdf

[Phil Burr]

Great work on finding the rules about playing host venues!  So this really does signal a shift on the NCAA's part.  Going back to the mid-60s approximately half of the championships have been played at university-owned or otherwise obvious home courses.  It looks like the days of a home-field advantage are over!


QUESTION: Will this also diminish the importance of greatness to the universities which have highly renowned courses (e.g. Ohio State, Oklahoma State, Stanford, UNM, etc.) if they lose the recognition that comes with hosting the championship?  Will Indiana be perhaps one of the last universities to invest tens of millions into a course that will not have a spot on the national stage?

[Pete_Pittock]

If I remember correctly from the broadcasts, it was said that there is an upcoming change to the rules regarding access to the course.

[Mark Kiely]

Going back to the mid-60s approximately half of the championships have been played at university-owned or otherwise obvious home courses.  It looks like the days of a home-field advantage are over!


QUESTION: Will this also diminish the importance of greatness to the universities which have highly renowned courses (e.g. Ohio State, Oklahoma State, Stanford, UNM, etc.) if they lose the recognition that comes with hosting the championship?  Will Indiana be perhaps one of the last universities to invest tens of millions into a course that will not have a spot on the national stage?

The way I read the last sentence of the NCAA announcement, if it happened to be the home course of a hosting team, they would just be prohibited from playing it in the last 10 days prior to the event.


Or am I getting that wrong?


If that's the case, doesn't really seem like this impacts much except the occasional outlier.

[Tim Leahy]

I mean, none of your points are wrong. It just sounds terrible to me.

Looks like your alma mater against mine for the title, Okl vs.Pep. I am rooting against AzSt since they have the home course advantage. Done deal.
Good luck tomorrow, roll Waves!

Consider it the battle of coaches whom I played against in junior golf but were better than me.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We gotcha! Great matches. PEPPERDINE MEN WIN NCAA GOLF NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!     Roll Waves!

[Tim Leahy]

I mean, none of your points are wrong. It just sounds terrible to me.

Looks like your alma mater against mine for the title, Okl vs.Pep. I am rooting against AzSt since they have the home course advantage. Done deal.
Good luck tomorrow, roll Waves!

Tim, as an Arizona alum I was certainly not cheering for ASU either, but I should point out that while they were the host school, Grayhawk is certainly not their home course. They have played out of Papago GC for the past few years since the on campus Karsten course was shuttered.


And, I believe, there are actually rules restricting teams from playing at Grayhawk to prevent getting overly familiar with the course (those rules might be changing in the future, but I think were in place this year at least). Though many of the competitors will have played some junior events there in the past s they will have some familiarity with it.

Poor A St guys and gals have to go home to this little practice facility in the desert,



https://www.chicagogolfreport.com/arizona-state-university-golf-practice-facility/

[Phil Burr]

I posted on 5/25 that desert golf isn't flattering to a woman's game.  What I meant was that Grayhawk's greens, particularly this time of year, are pretty dry and unreceptive to shots that don't have a lot of spin.  That is unflattering to a woman's game, and although I agree that they hit it pretty straight, when they do miss a fairway the Grayhawk rough is thick enough that they have little chance to advance the ball very far.


After watching both the men and the women, though, the design feature I like least at Grayhawk is the sharp drop-offs around many greens (think #9 & #16, for example) where the ball rolls off the green into a closely mown area and keep rolling until it comes to rest against or barely into that thick rough.  That rough eliminates the recovery options that we often associate with closely mown areas, such as putter, fairway wood/hybrid, or well-judged bump-&-run up the slope.  All that grass has the player reaching for their lob wedge.  Perhaps there's an environmental restriction that prevents them from having the closely mown areas just bleed off into the desert like you see at Talking Stick or other desert courses.  It would make for more interest in the short game.

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