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Rob Marshall

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Steep faced flat bottom bunkers
« on: May 17, 2021, 12:19:15 PM »
We have some very steeped faced flat bottom bunkers. This is the start of our second season since they were constructed. We are in upstate NY. The issue we are having is that a ball that hits on the bank will rarely come off the bank and into the bunker. It's actually a dangerous situation for some of our members. It's really amazing how steep the faces are and the ball won't roll down the slope. Can anything be done to thin the grass on the banks without risking losing them? Our super is afraid to cut them shorter and I agree and understand his concern. Maybe a different type of grass?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Steep faced flat bottom bunkers
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2021, 01:25:33 PM »
Our guys use trimmers on the steep banks, they cut to about 2” without any issues.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill Brightly

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Re: Steep faced flat bottom bunkers
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2021, 06:13:37 PM »
Our guys use trimmers on the steep banks, they cut to about 2” without any issues.


Jim, when you say "trimmers" do you mean the spinning short wire devices that you might edge with?


How long would it take two guys to cut grass on a large, steep-faced bunker such as you might find on a Redan?


(We are having the same issues at Hackensack.)

John Emerson

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Re: Steep faced flat bottom bunkers
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2021, 08:54:15 PM »
So the faces have some sort of irrigation?  What is the grass species?
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Steep faced flat bottom bunkers
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2021, 09:34:04 PM »
A couple ideas:


Since they are so new there's probably not a lot of sand splash into the grass faces. Over time this will smooth them out and firm them up, kinda like topdressing. Similarly, it will become a less fertile growing environment. Older grass faces become harder and harder to grow grass as the sand buildup and pitch makes it very hard to hold on to nutrients and water. So that will thin it out a bit, but also invites weed pressure. Also, no one likes to sit around and wait for sand to build up.


The questions about irrigation and grass species are good ones, so I'll reiterate: Are there pop up irrigation zones around the bunkers? What grass species? Something like a fine fescue would work really good and would get happier with the sand splash, Kentucky bluegrass can grow thick and unruly if it's rainy or overfertilized or overwatered, and get progressively less happy with splash.


As for mowing, a flymower or hover mower works the best, string trimmers also work ok. I've heard of guys applying PGRs (plant growth regulators such as Primo) to bunker faces to knock them back a little.


All those issues aside, I would prefer grass faces to high flashed faces, which are an unholy time waster.



Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Steep faced flat bottom bunkers
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2021, 10:45:12 PM »
Our guys use trimmers on the steep banks, they cut to about 2” without any issues.

Jim, when you say "trimmers" do you mean the spinning short wire devices that you might edge with?
How long would it take two guys to cut grass on a large, steep-faced bunker such as you might find on a Redan?
(We are having the same issues at Hackensack.)


Yes Bill, string trimmers. They have a rough mower with bat wing decks and they'll hang one over the side to cut a few feet at the top. There's no sand at the bottom of the hill, so they'll get on the flat, raise one of the decks, and mow the bottom edge. Eventually they come back and string trim the rest. Couldn't give you an exact time, but not too long, they've got it down to a science...p.s. one of them uses spikes for better footing.  ;D

We used to have a guy who'd do it with a two-cycle 24" mower. He tied a rope to it and lowered it down, then dragged it back up, and repeated it until he got it all mowed. Whew!

   
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Steep faced flat bottom bunkers
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2021, 12:11:09 AM »
A couple ideas:


Since they are so new there's probably not a lot of sand splash into the grass faces. Over time this will smooth them out and firm them up, kinda like topdressing. Similarly, it will become a less fertile growing environment. Older grass faces become harder and harder to grow grass as the sand buildup and pitch makes it very hard to hold on to nutrients and water. So that will thin it out a bit, but also invites weed pressure. Also, no one likes to sit around and wait for sand to build up.


The questions about irrigation and grass species are good ones, so I'll reiterate: Are there pop up irrigation zones around the bunkers? What grass species? Something like a fine fescue would work really good and would get happier with the sand splash, Kentucky bluegrass can grow thick and unruly if it's rainy or overfertilized or overwatered, and get progressively less happy with splash.


As for mowing, a flymower or hover mower works the best, string trimmers also work ok. I've heard of guys applying PGRs (plant growth regulators such as Primo) to bunker faces to knock them back a little.


All those issues aside, I would prefer grass faces to high flashed faces, which are an unholy time waster.


He’s going to try growth regulator. Your preference above is why we built that style of bunker.Certainly lowers the maintenance cost. I’ll find out what the grass type is. I know there is some fescue.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Steep faced flat bottom bunkers
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2021, 01:28:57 PM »
A couple ideas:


Since they are so new there's probably not a lot of sand splash into the grass faces. Over time this will smooth them out and firm them up, kinda like topdressing. Similarly, it will become a less fertile growing environment. Older grass faces become harder and harder to grow grass as the sand buildup and pitch makes it very hard to hold on to nutrients and water. So that will thin it out a bit, but also invites weed pressure. Also, no one likes to sit around and wait for sand to build up.


The questions about irrigation and grass species are good ones, so I'll reiterate: Are there pop up irrigation zones around the bunkers? What grass species? Something like a fine fescue would work really good and would get happier with the sand splash, Kentucky bluegrass can grow thick and unruly if it's rainy or overfertilized or overwatered, and get progressively less happy with splash.


As for mowing, a flymower or hover mower works the best, string trimmers also work ok. I've heard of guys applying PGRs (plant growth regulators such as Primo) to bunker faces to knock them back a little.


All those issues aside, I would prefer grass faces to high flashed faces, which are an unholy time waster.


Tom,


I often recommend growth regulators and am surprised at how many times superintendents balk due to the cost of Primo (although there are some similar generics available to do the same work.)  I would estimate that the labor cost would be saved, even at hundreds of dollars per gallon, but I haven't really done the math.


Of course, the design can help by tweaking the shapes to available mowers for bunker banks.


I would also think that a gently flashed sand might be more practical now that bunker liners are common.  At least, I have been rethinking my bunkers in terms of making them work the best with liners.  That takes both a good bunker liner and not much water draining over the top of the bunker to create a wash.  Depending on the sand particle shapes (i.e., angular vs. round) those slopes that limit washing seem to be 25% or less.  I know Better Billy Bunker recommends a maximum slope of 80% of angle of repose, but I have found you should really flash bunkers less than that.  With some of our local sands, it seems like 15-16% is about the max to avoid repeated washouts.  Sometimes, I will try to make the last few feet of the bunker up to 30% to keep the ball from lodging against the lip.


There are some design philosophy questions to answer as well.  Good players often hate flash bunkers because a semi buried or buried lie in the slope near the green is punished more than a miss further away, but hitting the bottom of the bunker.  That offends their proportionality mindset.  I note the PGA Tour set up calls for tightly mowed bunker banks in most cases, to best assure shots don't get caught up in the banks.


Architects usually like the MacKenzie style because it looks good, even most of the player architects, but they often recommend less sand on the faces and other measures to keep them firm, and send the ball to the bottom of the bunker no matter where it hits.  I have seen some of those Arkansas white sands where they really only have to rake the low point of the bunker because they get so firm, every ball ends up there.


Off topic, but the I am surprised there isn't more talk about the rugged edge bunkers being similarly "unfair" or at least, not proportionally designed.


I always thought Finger-Dye-Span did a nice job of building slightly flashed, visible bunkers that minimized washouts.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Hendren

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Re: Steep faced flat bottom bunkers
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2021, 04:57:14 PM »
I saw a robotic mower at Yale that seemed to work well.


I also saw guys mowing around the 7th green at Lawsonia with ropes.  I was astonished at their actions - I'd take even odds that someone was going to lose a foot before days end.   


Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Steep faced flat bottom bunkers
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2021, 12:40:44 PM »
I talked to our super yesterday. The faces are Fescue. Turf type or something like that. He said at our last meeting he was going to apply growth regulator. So guess we just need to let them age and let the sand splash do it's thing.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

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