On Player-Designers

[Brian_Ewen]

Its worth adding this link to the thread , some of Desmond Muirheads articles are still available through archive.org . This one deals with him and Nick Faldo designing a course together in Thailand.


http://web.archive.org/web/20000914154802/www.golfdesigner.com/articles/Thailand_booming.htm

[paul cowley]

...i had the opportunity to spend time with nick at a extremely remote and as yet undeveloped site on the baja peninsula...intelligent ,capable, witty,observant.....a 'student' of the design game, as anyone who is learning new things is always a 'student'...[no architects in this un-degreed profession emerged on the scene with ideas fully formed,but learned continuosly until ones new thoughts gelled, and the idea tide went out].......i feel nick is somewhere on this path of learning ....and will emerge more formed in the future [i presume....].

[Tom_Doak]

I have a number of questions after reading through this thread.

1:  to RJ:  If Nick Faldo teamed up with Dan Proctor and Dave Axland, what % of the finished product do you think would be his?  And isn't it sad that someone like Dan (who understands golf design pretty well on his own, despite never making 18 straight pars in the last round of an Open) can't get that work on his own?

2.  We've had several testimonials to Nick Faldo being a great guy.  Can anyone here give one as to the time he has devoted to past projects?  I wish Steve Smyers was lurking ...

3.  I DO know that Nick Faldo's trip to Sand Hills was on the jet of Bill Kubly at Landscapes Unlimited, which of course would love to build courses for him.  What might that mean?  Does Nick trust the contractor to do all the detail stuff when he's not around, so he doesn't need an on-site guy?

4.  I don't believe I've played any courses designed by Nick Faldo.  How many HAS he designed?  And of those, how much should be attributed to his partners of the day?

[RJ_Daley]

TD, I can't resist taking a stab at your questions.  My first choice would be if Dan his ownself would come on here and answer that!  But, we may have to wait awhile to see Dan post here on GCA, like the second coming!

I think it is a darn shame that the boys don't get more work on their own merit and past production.  On the other hand, if they had a team mate like Nick Faldo, and they got Nick squared away on the proper working relationship and had him there as much as they "required" to interpret some of his golf ideas, and he could yield to their sense of construction do'es and don'ts, well I bet they would get plenty of work.  

Dan once said to me that he would like to have Rod Whittman as one of his partners on the project I had been dreaming of in North Platte.  He said that Rod has a great deal of golf strategy sense and Dan would prefer to interpret and construct Rod's design ideas.  I have to think that a fellow of Nick Faldo's vast travels and experience playing courses all over the world has left an impression of what constitutes good and bad design in his mind.  Reading his thoughts (if they are his and not a ghost writer's - which I have no reason to believe they are not his thoughts) leads me to believe that IF Faldo were on site and devoted his time and golf intelligence to a project teamed with a design build like Bunkerhill, it ought to have a great chance of turning out very well.

If I were Nick, and I was serious about all of this, I'd get off the Jet and get on the travelling golf construction nomad bus, if you know what I mean...  

[Norbert P]

 Faldo uses Links Magazine for a vehicle to sell himself.  Links Magazine uses him because most golfers know him and this makes a good conduit for passive golf architecture fans (and dudes with lots of money that want to work with a famous pro).
 

[Tom_Doak]

RJ:  I think you're helping to perpetuate the myth that people like Dan and Rod need help, and that people like Nick Faldo are the ones they need to help them (and to scrape 85% of the money off the top of the fee).

[SL_Solow]

I would also be interested in hearing from architects who worked with Faldo in the past (eg Steve Smyers).  I suspect Steve is too much the gentleman to post on this subject.

[moth]

Who hasn't Faldo worked with??

At last count.

IMG Design Services
His own design firm in london
Steve Smyers
Curley and Schmidt
Tony Cashmore

Others??

Tom Doak has it absolutely right - what do these guys generally add - except a bigger fee which they take the bulk of. They are never ever there enough to make much of a design contribution and few of them can really read and understand plans (apologies for generalising excessively)

I worked breifly with Woosnam once and he is great guy and is nice to have a beer with and all that but its all about the $$ in the end. No more, no less.

[Brian_Ewen]

Brett
Desmond Muirhead.

I have played 2 'Nick Faldo designed' golf courses , well sort of . I have played Century Banchang , the one mentioned in the Desmond Muirhead article I posted on this thread , and another in the same area of Thailand called Great Lake .

Both courses are fine , but the Banchang course is really a Desmond Muirhead with a little input from Faldo , who Mr Muirhead said was the last time he would ever work with a Name Designer .

As for Great Lake Mr Faldo supposedly designed 36 holes but only 18 has been built , but by who ? . Tom got me thinking and I found in the opening day programme that I had kept  , that the course was built by IMG Design Co. and Mr Faldo admits to " reviewing designs and plans " , "visiting during its intial construction phase where I ultimately thought that the finished product would prove to be a great addition to Golf in Thailand " .

So who's handiwork am I seeing at Great Lake ? , as its a decent golf course in an area of horrible late 80's/early 90's Country Clubs . In fact it looks a lot like Chart Hills with similar styles of holes .

[Tom_Doak]

Brian:

If the course was built before 1992 or so it could be Jim Engh's.  After that it might be Brit Stinson who is the head of IMG's design office in Cleveland currently.

They also do some work out of a European office I think, but I don't know who is responsible for those.

[MikeJones]

Sorry to bring this topic back up again- I was just browsing through old threads and came across this one.

Shapers think that the architects get too much credit, architects think that PD's get too much credit, I see a pattern emerging!

It's foolish to tar all pd's with the same brush, after all, wasn't Old Tom a player! It wouldn't surprise me if Faldo was starting to take his designing more seriously now that his playing days are numbered. Who is to say that given his character traits, that he won't go on to make some truly great courses in the future.

Edit for spelling.

[cardyin]

Faldo came to Indianapolis just before the U.S Open at Medinah in 1990 to play Wolf Run, desgined by Steve Smyers.  Faldo then had Smyers design Chart Hills for his company in the little village of Bidenden in southern England.  With Steve's help, my wife and I played it.  It is a classic Steve Smyers design, although Smyers' identity as the designer is not mentioned anywhere at the course or in the promotional materials.  Smyers subsequently "worked" with Nick Price to design the Links at Heartland Crossing in Camby, Indiana outside Indianapolis,  It, too, is a classic Steve Smyers design.  At least Steve got his name attached as a "Nick Price/Smyers" design. I suppose those who might play both might be amazed as how alike the courses designed by Nick Faldo and Nick Price look.