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Jason Thurman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2021, 02:41:06 PM »
I don't doubt that green size may have some small correlation one way or the other with pace of play, but I can't fathom that it's one of the top ten factors and there's a whole lot of speculation about it in this thread without much in the way of real data or even actual real-life observation.


In the meantime, I think the idea of smaller and severe targets as a way to challenge good players without stretching beyond 8000 yards has real merit, and it's bizarre to me that every trend in design for, like, 100+ years has mostly been toward bigger and bigger greens, with an occasional outlier like Harbour Town.


I mean, what do we even call a small green anymore? It feels like something around 7000 sq ft is probably about average on new courses of note. Maybe bigger even. Doesn't Pebble average closer to 4000? I have a hard time understanding how, in spite of some very popular-with-the-people courses like Harbour Town and Pebble Beach, it still just seems like there's never been a real trend of emulating their exacting target sizes.


If nothing else, smaller greens mean fewer flat areas to put pins. If Pebble's greens were 8000 square feet, missing short-sided and pitching with the green's tilt might just look a lot like it does on most Tour setups, where slopes tend to flatten out before a ball gets to the pin so that the out-of-position pitch isn't as hard as it might be if the slope fed right to the pin, and only the deftest of shots would stop within a few feet of rolling past. Pebble's greens don't leave room for such a player-friendly setup. They're too small, generally with tilt throughout, and don't always give the option of tucking the pin right in the middle of a nice flat 10' radius that any pro can hit and bury putts from within.


If the trend is going to be ongoing wussification of setups, small greens with tilt throughout are probably a little more setup-proof when it comes to still requiring strong players to think about their misses.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Edward Glidewell

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2021, 02:55:45 PM »
I don't think Pebble Beach or Harbour Town are popular because of the size of their greens, though -- at least if we're talking about the general golfing public and not the professionals. The main reasons would be location and the fact that they host a PGA event (i.e. people see them on TV and know about them). I doubt green size would even make the top 10.


I am personally fine with small greens on some courses. I think if every course had small greens that would get pretty boring (variety is the spice of life, after all), but the same would be true if every course had massive greens.


Also, haven't Pebble's greens shrunk significantly?

Bill Seitz

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2021, 03:28:15 PM »
Although redos may have changed this, the only greens I can think of that might be smaller are Lakeside in LA and Cedar Crest in Dallas. Small greens are great if they don’t have rough all the way around.


Last time I played Lakeside was probably 20 years or so ago.  Only the second time I'd played it.  I walked off after a decent round thinking that I'd had one of my best short game days ever.  In retrospect, I realized it was because a) it was easy to get near greens, but not on them, and b) you can make a putt from almost anywhere on the green.

mike_malone

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2021, 04:03:36 PM »
Ok Smarty Pants Struthers


Riviera blows up your idea in a week. It has great and big greens.
AKA Mayday

archie_struthers

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2021, 04:11:34 PM »
 8)


Been juggling some work here and just caught on to Eukeka  ;D   Actually happy or no way to I get mentioned in same breath as that other famous "Archi"


Was thinking similar to EG as to fairway cut height surrounds though I can't embrace collection areas. For the best players though chipping with no slope can get in their head.  Koepka hit a brilliant chip to seal the deal in Phoenix though pretty sure that shot is relatively harder for him than us. So many ways to twist the surrounds to make this fun !


I'm liking the concept more and more!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 07:57:40 PM by archie_struthers »

archie_struthers

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2021, 05:13:38 PM »
 8)


Yes it does Mayday! 


But obfuscation on this thread will get you nowhere 8)  as this came to me in a dream !




Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2021, 05:37:11 PM »

I mean, what do we even call a small green anymore? It feels like something around 7000 sq ft is probably about average on new courses of note. Maybe bigger even. Doesn't Pebble average closer to 4000?


I think the greens at Pebble are even smaller than that.  When we started discussing small greens at Sebonack, Mr. Nicklaus asked me what was the biggest green at Pebble Beach, and I correctly answered the 18th.  Then he asked me how big it was, and I didn't know.  It's 4200 square feet!


Again, we don't build small greens because superintendents say it makes their jobs impossible, even though there are plenty of old golf courses with non-USGA greens that are well under 5000 sf.


When Tom Fazio was signed up before me to do Stonewall, he told them he wouldn't build a green under 6000, and he even had a line in his specifications book that if the drawing showed a green less than that, the contractor should not build it less than 6000 sf without verifying it directly with Tom Fazio!

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2021, 05:42:39 PM »
Sitwell Park?
Atb

Chris Kane

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2021, 10:36:20 PM »
That's correct.  The greenkeepers in the sand belt have started asking players to take the trolley around the green so the grass will be ever more perfect.  That's the mechanism here:  the search for ever-better turf starts to impact what we can design.


I don't blame them. When pull carts were first taken across the green, members were using very basic club-supplied carts which weighed a few kilos. Now they're using much heavier 3 or 4-wheel things which resemble a high-tech baby's pram, or worse, electric pull carts with a very heavy battery.

Jeff Schley

  • Total Karma: -5
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2021, 10:38:24 PM »

When Tom Fazio was signed up before me to do Stonewall, he told them he wouldn't build a green under 6000, and he even had a line in his specifications book that if the drawing showed a green less than that, the contractor should not build it less than 6000 sf without verifying it directly with Tom Fazio!
Wow, this is interesting to us non GCA, is this common in protocol to build a course? The contractor has clauses to follow as safeguards.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2021, 12:08:34 PM »
I would like to see no rough and tight complexes so that short sides roll a long way instead of holding the ball...As for the long drivers...their ball is going to roll further into the rough especially on sloping holes...it might not work but I think it would affect the pros more than we think...especially around greens...it makes them play away from corners more than high surrounds..
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2021, 12:30:40 PM »
I would like to see no rough and tight complexes so that short sides roll a long way instead of holding the ball...As for the long drivers...their ball is going to roll further into the rough especially on sloping holes...it might not work but I think it would affect the pros more than we think...especially around greens...it makes them play away from corners more than high surrounds..
+1 ... yes please.
Atb

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2021, 12:39:20 PM »
I would like to see no rough and tight complexes so that short sides roll a long way instead of holding the ball...As for the long drivers...their ball is going to roll further into the rough especially on sloping holes...it might not work but I think it would affect the pros more than we think...especially around greens...it makes them play away from corners more than high surrounds..


Mike,

That sounds a lot like Pinehurst #2, but perhaps with fewer greenside bunkers, so balls will run away more often?  I guess that would work for everyday play, especially if the greens weren't as severely crowned either..

Jason Thurman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2021, 01:04:59 PM »
I like variety in greens surrounds. I don't have hard-and-fast rules for whether short grass, rough, bunkers, or whatever else is ideal.


I do think we overrate how much short grass challenges a good player, and how much it benefits a weak player. I began last year with the short game of a 25 handicapper. By October, I was getting up and down from everywhere and probably more like a 5. As a 25 cap short-gamer, I prayed for my ball to find the rough around greens so that I had a little more cushion. Tight lies were an embarrassing parade of skulls and chunks. But as I started getting comfortable using the bounce of the club, my odds of getting up and down from a fairway lie got to where they were about 30% better than my odds from the rough. The month of October was amazing. I hope I haven't forgotten everything over the winter, but I digress.


Point is: good players aren't as scared of short grass as y'all like to act like they are, and unskilled players don't love it as much as you think either.


Surround the greens with whatever you want. I don't need made up rules about what is good vs bad in a greens surrounding - variety is a wonderful thing and there's a place for everything from short grass to OB.


But that's why we need more small greens - variety is good.


Although Tom Doak's point about selling them to superintendents makes perfect sense. We may need to find the guy who wrote that Jackson Hole course superintendent posting and get him to commission a design.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2021, 03:45:20 PM »

I used the SQ Footage measuring tool on Google Earth to measure all the greens at Pebble.  I zoomed in as much as I could so the measurements are fairly accurate.

A few observations:

- I had no clue how large 17 green is at over 5,000 sq. feet (I measured it 3 times). I even measured the front and rear sections separately to make sure the software wasn't buggy with measuring an hour glass shape, but that came out the same as well. Its by far and away the largest green on the course.
- 13 is far larger than I thought at over 4000 sq. feet.
- Conversely I didn't realize 8 green was that small at ~2500 sq. feet.
- Not surprisingly 11 was the smallest at just over 2000 sq. feet.

#   SQ. Feet
1   3648
2   3045
3   3846
4   2314
5   3202
6   3548
7   2580
8   2490
9   4204
10   3703
11   2036
12   3045
13   4116
14   2926
15   3238
16   3362
17   5147
18   4167
AVG.  3367

Steve Lang

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2021, 05:20:56 PM »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2021, 05:25:08 PM »
8)  Kalen, You didn't;t have to work that hard...

https://www.golfwrx.com/647638/this-mind-blowing-graphic-shows-how-small-the-greens-at-pebble-beach-truly-are/


Edit: I confused this with the article on the 18th green in the other thread.  This one is at least plausible.


I have PB 1-12 in the aggregate at 37,661 sq feet, and TOC 5/12 at 35,213.  ;)




« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 05:33:06 PM by Kalen Braley »

Ben Hollerbach

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2021, 08:36:30 PM »
#   SQ. Feet
1   3648
2   3045
3   3846
4   2314
5   3202
6   3548
7   2580
8   2490
9   4204
10   3703
11   2036
12   3045
13   4116
14   2926
15   3238
16   3362
17   5147
18   4167
AVG.  3367

I did the same thing yesterday, but it appears my measurements are smaller on virtually every green. I wonder what that suggests for the accuracy of the tool vs the user?

1   3,504
2   2,759
3   3,631
4   1,822
5   2,776
6   3,287
7   2,197
8   2,349
9   3,899
10   3,544
11   1,955
12   2,825
13   3,659
14   3,454
15   3,052
16   3,116
17   4,908
18   3,828
AVG   3,143

Steve Lang

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2021, 08:59:29 PM »
#   SQ. Feet
1   3648
2   3045
3   3846
4   2314
5   3202
6   3548
7   2580
8   2490
9   4204
10   3703
11   2036
12   3045
13   4116
14   2926
15   3238
16   3362
17   5147
18   4167
AVG.  3367

I did the same thing yesterday, but it appears my measurements are smaller on virtually every green. I wonder what that suggests for the accuracy of the tool vs the user?

1   3,504
2   2,759
3   3,631
4   1,822
5   2,776
6   3,287
7   2,197
8   2,349
9   3,899
10   3,544
11   1,955
12   2,825
13   3,659
14   3,454
15   3,052
16   3,116
17   4,908
18   3,828
AVG   3,143


Did you enlarge the view as much as possible before you outlined the area?  if you didn't, the perimeter line width can be too large for tracing curves and reduce area being measured...
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Steve Lang

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2021, 09:09:00 PM »
Archie,


I hope you didn't hurt  yourself in that eureka moment...  is there a parallel thought then  that at venues hosting pro tourneys, they simply cut less green length grass to reduce gross green putting areas?  not necessarily equally between or on all greens... then revert to larger areas after the event?


I see it cutting +/- both ways


 ::)
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2021, 11:26:28 AM »



Point is: good players aren't as scared of short grass as y'all like to act like they are, and unskilled players don't love it as much as you think either.


Surround the greens with whatever you want. I don't need made up rules about what is good vs bad in a greens surrounding - variety is a wonderful thing and there's a place for everything from short grass to OB.


But that's why we need more small greens - variety is good.



when higher handicappers do find out the only shot that works on modern high end "short"-short grass is putting/hybrid, variety and choice(and often fun) leave the equation.
Most don't though realize they should putt and leave behind a failed legacy of divots and frustration.


As Jason mentions, I root for my students ball to end up in light greenside rough-nice to see them be able to hit the green from 10-15 yards away.Yet a pro might get an less predictable squirter than he would from a tight predictable lie.




Variety, in everything, and around greens, is the spice of life.


Translation-don't let the (unrelated)fact that elite players hit it 15% farther than our former heroes suck the variety and life out of other areas of golf design.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 11:35:39 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2021, 03:23:25 PM »

I did the same thing yesterday, but it appears my measurements are smaller on virtually every green. I wonder what that suggests for the accuracy of the tool vs the user?

1   3,504
2   2,759
3   3,631
4   1,822
5   2,776
6   3,287
7   2,197
8   2,349
9   3,899
10   3,544
11   1,955
12   2,825
13   3,659
14   3,454
15   3,052
16   3,116
17   4,908
18   3,828
AVG   3,143

Ben how many lines/mouse clicks did you do per green?  I zoomed in and did 60-70 clicks per green to ensure I wasn't squaring off the rounded parts too much.

I went back and did hole #1, which was pretty easy to see with the recent sanding. Here's a screenshot of the result, which is pretty close to the measurement I got the first time around (within 50 sq. feet):


Ben Hollerbach

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: eukeka!
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2021, 04:28:24 PM »
How much more expensive, would it be to maintain 36 ~2,500 sqft greens vs. 18 ~5,000 sqft greens? If the practice of having dual greens per hole was restored would that help to toughen up the course around the greens, add more interest to play, and reduce wear and tear across all green surfaces?



Kalen, I may not have had as many points, but it was close and the procedure was much of the same. I'll test again to see if I get anything different in my measurements