[Marty Bonnar]

I’ve occasionally dabbled using negative space in some landscape and play facility design. I’m wondering if any of the Golf Archies have ever used, or considered using, it in course design.
I’m primarily thinking the ideal location for using it might be in Out-Of-Play areas where you might use it to frame a view or encourage the player along a particular route.
It could be pretty spectacular created from waving fescues or even using distant features as a focus or maybe even a visually-disorienting element.
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
F.

[Marty Bonnar]

Nah, let’s talk about Basketball.

[Niall C]

I'll join in if you first explain to me what you mean by negative space ?


Niall


ps. I'm guessing it's the bit behind the basketball goal ?

[Tom_Doak]

Marty:


The way I've heard the term used most often in golf course design is describing the space behind an infinity green, that you can't see, but is in play and in the player's mind.


But that's certainly not the classic art definition of the term.


The thing we have done which fits the true definition is to try and hide the mowing lines behind contours as much as possible, so that the shape of the hole is formed by the different textures of fairway/rough/native/bunker, but without the boundaries being clear.

[Peter Pallotta]

Marty - I didn't want to jump in, especially as you wanted to hear more from architects. But my two cents:
For me, the beautiful and naturalistic and properly-scaled use of negative space is absolutely critical to my full enjoyment of the 'positive space' ie the golf course. Without it, I start to feel hemmed-in and claustrophobic -- not a feeling I like anywhere, and especially not outdoors where I least expect it. Plus, without negative space my attention is directed fully and exclusively and only on what the architect has 'consciously designed' -- and few are the architects so wonderful that this narrow focus is enough to captivate me.

[Bill Seitz]

I'll join in if you first explain to me what you mean by negative space ?


Niall


ps. I'm guessing it's the bit behind the basketball goal ?

Not sure what it means in a GCA context.  The term itself usually means the space around and within the positive space of, say, a corporate logo, which can be used as an integral part of the logo itself.  Like the arrow in the FedEx logo, or the H in the old Hartford Whalers logo. 

[Sean_A]

I’ve occasionally dabbled using negative space in some landscape and play facility design. I’m wondering if any of the Golf Archies have ever used, or considered using, it in course design.
I’m primarily thinking the ideal location for using it might be in Out-Of-Play areas where you might use it to frame a view or encourage the player along a particular route.
It could be pretty spectacular created from waving fescues or even using distant features as a focus or maybe even a visually-disorienting element.
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
F.

What is negative space in gca? Generally for the outdoors I think of negative space as hidden in plain sight. Yes, no?

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

The largest impact negative space has is how the architect uses the negative space of when the golfer has ball in pocket.


In other words...


From the putting green to the next tee.

[Thomas Dai]

Negative space? The area between many golfers ears?
atb

[Paul Rudovsky]

Is there any difference between "negative space" and "background"? 


For example, Weiskopf/Morrish are known for leaving a single large tree of some other "aiming point" on doglegs.  First one I can really hearing (although obviously not a Weiskopf/Morrish design...and not designed by Jack Neville was the first time I played Pebble (1969).  Got to the 8th tee and my caddy handed me my 3-wood and said "aim at the chimney on the Firestone house".  As I recall Double Eagle is loaded with this.


So if it is "background", can it be either natural (tree or mountain) or man made (house, etc.)?  Also...I would assume it need not be an aiming point but just "there" to attract your attention (e.g. Mourne Mountains at Royal Cty Down) which can be a benefit (by relaxing the golfers mind) or a distraction (be diverting his/her attention from the course and shot at hand).


If so, every architect must think about that as a major major consideration, just as golfers always talk about the views etc

[Mike Nuzzo]

The most similar item, to negative space, that came to my mind Marty is an extra-wide fairway on #5 at Wolf Point.
Tom asked me about this area on the plan before he visited, why is there so much fairway over there?
My goal was to have the player "feel" like there was more room to the left when playing the hole than there actually was.
So if you aimed for the "middle" of the fairway, consciously or unconsciously, what you thought was a good spot was actually not so good due to the landforms around the green. Over the years I saw a lot of people in the "middle" of the fairway with little chance of hitting the green.
So my response to you today is our "negative" fairway.
Not the same as true negative space, but I'm struggling with creating something physical on a golf course by the absence of something else.
Peace

[Steve Burrows]

The way that this concept is being described (well, if I am reading everything correctly) is not really the idea of "negative space." Instead, I think the term that you are looking for is "borrowed scenery. One clear example is that of the town of St. Andrews itself as one works their way through the last few holes, in particular. That scenery is off-property, but is very much part of the experience. It not only provides aiming points on certain shots, but is also integral to a very specific identity or specific sense of place.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think background in landscape architecture is the concept of background....not +/- space.  As mostly an artistic concept, I think you have to see both, so I am not sure blind areas on the hole strictly qualify either.


I learned about it in landscape design classes (actually pretty much in the first design theory class) but don't consciously recall using it.  If I did use it subconsciously, I think it would have been in terms of shadows and light.  Certainly, a dense, dark backdrop of trees and vegetation behind a green is negative space, offsetting the positive space that is the designed green.


Shadows can line the side of holes as well.  And, I recall other cases where I elevated a green a bit, to make sure it stood out in the sunlight where the shadows covered most of the surroundings.  I have seen fw stick out as sunny with shadows on the outskirts, although, typically only at the start and end of the day, rarely at noon.  Certain shadows on steep sloped grass bunkers probably qualify as negative space as well.

[Marty Bonnar]

Here’s a couple of images to (maybe!) better illustrate my thoughts.
First up is the ‘standard’ simple image which can be viewed in two ways. Is it a white vase or is it two red faces?



In a more golf course design context, a view from the tee of an outline of a fairway and a distant horizon - perhaps?:



If we assume the fairway is the ‘subject’ of the image/view:



Then the ‘other’ shape becomes the negative space:



See how it contextualises the ‘fairway’ area? They’re both intimately associated. As Francis Albert so concisely crooned: “You can’t have one without the other...”
My main point is that the shape, delineation, edge and interface of the negative space (with the lines and shape of the ‘designed’ shape) are equally as important as those of the positive space.


It’s hard being this geeky!
F.

[Tom_Doak]

Marty:


Thanks for the drawing.  So, that is the classic "art" definition of negative space.


If someone is using that as a main part of their designs, I've never noticed it.  But I have always been slow to see even the second shape in your first illustration!


One thing that sticks out to me about your idea is that the green "negative space" in your last photo is rarely ever just green -- outside of the fairways, there are usually competing textures and random elements that break up the negative space.  There are some courses where management has tried to eliminate all of that background noise -- Shinnecock Hills is one -- but I find that sort of rough management sort of creepy.  [Plus it also makes it harder to find a lost ball.]

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