Lake Presidential Golf Club (Landmark/Jeff Potts?)

[J Sadowsky]

Had the privilege (well, it's a public course, so I guess "had the greens fees") to play Lake Presidential this weekend in Upper Marlboro, MD.  Wonderful course that is, with the possible company of Laurel Hill, the best public in the DC area.  Also, it was well within the spirit of the design theory popular on this board (and which I agree with): wide fairways (with penal rough but not many trees), complex green structures (including a truly wonderful "volcano green" complex on 11, I think, and a wonderful green on a short par 3 16).  The last 3 holes - a short par 3, a short par 4, and a short par 5 - are in fact all great holes.  And I'm not saying that because I had 2 pars and a 3 putt bogey on them (I am a 20+ handicapper).

I think the rough is just too penal in a few areas, plus it becomes impossible to find your ball in some parts of the rough - without caddies and with a lot of "one-off" play, this poses a problem. 

I also think a few holes - specifically 15, 5, and 7 - are simply too difficult from the "men's tees" (which they specifically recommend non-senior men to play from, stating that the seniors tees will just be too short in some circumstances, which is correct).  Some of that comes from difficult forced carries that are forced in part by the environment, but there's no reason to not move the tees up for the average player and give them a chance to really play some holes that otherwise would have strategic value.

Cart paths are unfortunately "in play" in several areas, and while walking is mostly possible, there are a few long walks (mostly around ravines or the named Lake) that would make walking difficult.

But overall, a fantastic course.

I also found it interesting that the course is not signed by any particular architect, but as a "Landmark Golf Design."   am pretty sure the head of LGD is Jeff Potts, who appears to be a former associate for Pete Dye.  Other courses he's designed at Landmark - ASCGA states he designed Lost Valley (which says Pete Dye), but Arcos Gardens (Landmark) and Murder Rock (Landmark) - do not state that it is a "Jeff Potts" design.   I have two questions regarding Potts:

1)  While obviously some design firms give more credit than others to the head honcho, is there any other architectural firm where the course and websites put no "official" name at all on the course, but instead attribute the design to solely a corporate entity?  I know RGD's webpage listing projects doesn't say "Tom Doak" next to all of them or state that Doak personally designed all the courses, but Doak's name is featured prominently on the webpage.

2) Does anyone know if Potts had substantial design responsibility for any other Dye courses besides Lost Valley?

Note that the first question isn't meant to have a normative aspect.  Indeed, it's pretty obvious why RGC would want to cash in on Doak's name whereas Potts name isn't nearly as marketable.  But I guess this strategy keeps Potts name from being as marketable down the road, and might lead to some interesting questions if Potts and Landmark split ways as to who gets credit for those courses - Potts, or the newly-headed Landmark team?  I also guess that this isn't a novel concern, as associates have been designing courses without much feedback from their putative heads for decades without getting credit - but the corporate "credit" is certainly a new twist.

In any event, Potts/Landmark designed a great course.  Bravo.

[Jay Flemma]

Good course.  Pretty interesting, though a lot of water.  Certainly better than a lot of the courses that get more ink like Whiskey creek and Stonewall.  Though Augustine might be a better value.

Good stuff though from former Dye guys.

Justin, buzz me off list about getting together to hang out while I'm down for the Open.

[Carl Nichols]

Justin:

With all of the rain we've had lately in this area, the rough at my home course and the other I've played in the last few weeks has been brutal -- so perhaps this is more of a one-time problem than a recurring one.  But having spent a lot of time this weekend looking for balls that weren't hit that far off the fairway, it certainly gets annoying and can slow things down.

[J Sadowsky]

Jay:

Water (or other unplayable ravines) is in play more than perhaps optimal, but I found that it was mostly on approach shots, where there was always a decent bail out option. On tee shots, if you wanted to avoid the water, you could almost always do so with quite a bit of fairway to work with, unless your shot was either extremely wayward or topped.  To varying degrees, 5, 7, and 15 were exceptions.

I also think Augustine is temporarily closed for renovation. 

I've sent you a ping about the Open.  Looking forward to it.

Carl:  Agree.  Though some of the rough was a foot higher or more.  At that point, I feel like it is being left wild, rather than just overly thick.  While I can appreciate the "Scottish" element of naturally-maintained rough, I am not sure it is efficient for a CCFAD.  Particularly for those (unlike myself) who are playing for a precise handicap or tournament score.

[Bernie Bell]

Just saw that this course is for sale for <$2 million.  It has been highly rated in the past, although based on my single play, I must confess I did not understood why.

[Mark Kiely]

1)  While obviously some design firms give more credit than others to the head honcho, is there any other architectural firm where the course and websites put no "official" name at all on the course, but instead attribute the design to solely a corporate entity? 

Does the current iteration of "Nicklaus Design" list an individual's name as the architect? That's the first thing that came to my mind.

[Paul Carey]

Troy Miller (a poster here) was involved in the design as well.  He may have some insight as to who should be credited for the design work.


https://www.millergolfdesign.com/projects

[Ira Fishman]

Troy Miller (a poster here) was involved in the design as well.  He may have some insight as to who should be credited for the design work.


https://www.millergolfdesign.com/projects

A digression: where is The Lake Course listed as a current project located? Looks fascinating.


Ira

[Tom_Doak]

Interestingly, Jeff Potts was part of the crew at TPC Plum Creek when I went to work there for the Dyes.  He was the assistant irrigation guy under Neal Iverson -- the older brother of Eric, who is one of my senior associates.


[There was lots of talent on many of Pete's courses back then.  I've done my best to emulate that.]


Jeff was a really good player back then, but he was one of many who thought I was crazy to dream of being a golf course architect.  I was very surprised when I started seeing his name on Landmark projects . . . Apes Hill in Barbados is another.  I've never seen any of his work in person, though.

[Troy Miller]

Jeff Potts was the Director of Golf Design for Landmark Land Company in the 2000s when I was a Design Associate for Landmark.

Pottsy is a great designer and one of the best I’ve been around in understanding the technical details of designs. 

He worked for Pete and Perry prior to coming on at Landmark - Jeff’s body of work with the Dyes included many in Japan, and Lost Canyons was where he was introduced to Landmark who had almost exclusively worked with Pete for the prior 30 years and had Brian Curly and Lee Schmidt in-house back in ‘the good old days’ of Landmark during the creation of PGA West and others in the California Desert.  There were other ‘Landmark Land Designs’ at that time which were Brian and Lee’s creations.  Landmark always took an active role, even when other design offices were involved in the projects.

Sadly, Landmark closed up shop in 2015 - I literally turned off the lights in our last office - and Jerry Barton the CEO and Founder of Landmark passed away in 2018.  Jerry was once responsible for more Top 100 courses than any other developer and was the forerunner to Herb Kohler or Mike Keiser and the story of his life’s work is one worth exploring if you aren’t familiar.

Lake Presidential was a great project on a very good piece of ground, but like many built in the 2000s was a bit of ‘wrong place, wrong time’ given the rapid growth of the DC suburbs that saw serious attrition after the crash.

I went by last year for the first time in half of a decade and saw a lot of fairways that had been brought in (yes, it was wider) and agree the lush nature of the rough and typical failed attempts at ‘native’ areas make it too penal today in places.  There are heads out there that should have been keyed off right after grow-in.


The ‘volcano hole’ No. 11, was inspired by the 3rd at The Ocean Course at Kiawah (it should be noted that Chris Cole who was the Director of Golf for Landmark and was the President of Kiawah for Landmark was also heavily involved in design for LML throughout the 2000s) - I’m hoping it’s still short grass all the way around the green complex, but I think that may have been altered as well.

The ‘ravine holes’ of 12, 13, & 15 are good examples of how to use broken land but my personal favorite is the reachable Par 4th 17th - there’s a big half pipe to the left that gathers balls down to the semi blind green on the right - when the course is as firm as it should be you really only need to hit it 50 less than the yardage to get it on the green, and it will disappear down the slope before reappearing on the green.  I think the up and over Par 5 3rd is also somewhat unique with a semi punchbowl green.

Landmark’s other work during the 2000s included Apes Hill, which is getting new life now, Arcos Gardens Spain did not survive the crash, and Murder Rock which has since been reformulated by Bill Coore at Big Cedar Lodge - the width added to the course was much needed and the course is much better because of it.

I always tell people I was very fortunate to see the best and the worst that my industry would ever be in the first decade of my career - a perspective I value greatly.


Question about the Lakes Course - it’s been on and off again for many years but is planned in Northern VA as part of a land swap development plan - though I don’t have much faith in it happening any time soon, but the concept is a cool one.