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Nick_Ficorelli

Raynor and Scotland
« on: November 07, 2003, 03:36:35 PM »
Visited Mountain Lake ,Lookout Mountain,and Black Creek this
week and think I might be on Raynor overload (not a bad thing).
My thoughts turned to ,"which Scottish course singularly was most influential in his and C.B.'s designs?"
The most obvious to me is TOC, but I also saw a whole lot of North Berwick,and I don't just mean the Redan. Do we know how much time Raynor and Banks spent in Scotland and where they visited?
I got lots of photo's but am clueless on the posting procedure.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor and Scotland
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2003, 03:50:58 PM »
Nick - I might be mistaken but I don't think Raynor ever went to Scotland. He learned everything at the knee of CBM.

TEPaul

Re:Raynor and Scotland
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2003, 04:48:11 PM »
Raynor never went to Scotland. Doubt he went to Europe at all, not for golf architecture anyway.

TEPaul

Re:Raynor and Scotland
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2003, 04:51:53 PM »
Belay that--Raynor never went to Europe at all. Raynor never even took up playing golf until eight years into his golf architecture career.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor and Scotland
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2003, 04:57:43 PM »
An interesting question then - did Raynor ever build a "replica"
hole that MacD himself didn't build, or at least conceive?

The only one I could possibly think of is the Knoll hole at PRC. It is well documented that CBM's anger at the club for not letting him build on the polo field. He basically walked away from the job giving Raynor full responsibility. So was the knoll CBM or SR's idea? It would seem impossible that it was Raynor's being so early in his career, but thought I would ask it nevertheless.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor and Scotland
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2003, 08:18:12 PM »
I certainly see alot of N Berwick in McD work.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor and Scotland
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2003, 09:58:03 PM »
The Knoll hole, SPBD, is Macdonald. I sent a picture of Piping Rock-13 to Scottscraig where the original is after Gil Hanse told me of the origin along with a letter. They were astounded at the similarity. Their 4th was the feature hole of their yardage book - they are near identical.

So I can't see how SR could have done it on his own without seeing tghe original zand they had never built one before (this, Piping Rock, the second course after NGLA).

These are very interesting short-4's, more highly elevated than a "Short" (like three times higher), with a back plateau, and a terrible falloff over the green (many 14-ft+) - so with a back pin placement, even though you can nearly reach the base of these greens on the tee-ball, the short shot can't be flown on to the back level and must be trickled up over the rise landing on the main level. If you think you'd rather lay back for more spin, that is just as difficult.

Neat hole, generally around 315 to 350 yards.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re:Raynor and Scotland
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2003, 06:05:44 AM »
I grew up around Piping Rock and I did say a couple of years ago I thought Macdonald got pissed off at the polo interests early on in that project and walked off but I don't have anything to actually support that. It was always just a rumor. I do know the polo interests got pissed off at him though.

It seems from further research (at the club recently) and rereading some of Macdonald that he didn't walk off that job.

The interesting one with Macdonald was the Creek Club that I never knew much about until recently. He was there for a number of years and very central to the formation of the club but he sure did have a contentious relationship with that club and eventually quit following a dispute.

T_MacWood

Re:Raynor and Scotland
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2003, 06:41:50 AM »
According to Herbert Fowler, Macdonald brought a surveyor with him when he toured the UK--no mention of a name.

TEPaul

Re:Raynor and Scotland
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2003, 08:18:02 AM »
According to the Fishers Island history book (probably from George Bahto) Seth Raynor never went to Europe.