St. Patrick's Northwest Ireland

[Tom_Doak]

Hi Tom and Ally,


Any chance that you can both do a rough outline sketch where your initial routings would have been for 18 holes on this site.


Cheers
Ben

Hi Ben:


I will post my routing on the ground, thanks.


I don't mind discussing routings - in fact I will probably include this project in my book on routing courses.  But St. Patrick's is not a routing contest - or if it was, I already won it      So while I'm happy to walk the site with Ally and share my thoughts as fellow professionals, it would undermine the project for him to post his routing and have us debate the two here.  Especially before we have even started building something.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hi Tom and Ally,


Any chance that you can both do a rough outline sketch where your initial routings would have been for 18 holes on this site.


Cheers
Ben

Hi Ben:


I will post my routing on the ground, thanks.


I don't mind discussing routings - in fact I will probably include this project in my book on routing courses.  But St. Patrick's is not a routing contest - or if it was, I already won it      So while I'm happy to walk the site with Ally and share my thoughts as fellow professionals, it would undermine the project for him to post his routing and have us debate the two here.  Especially before we have even started building something.

100% agree.


As soon as Tom was awarded this, my routing (which the client never saw incidentally) is not for public consumption.


Really intrigued to see what Tom has come up with. I’m sure he has chosen some hole corridors that I did and a whole bunch of stuff that is different.


Ally

[Ben Stephens]

Hi Tom and Ally,


Any chance that you can both do a rough outline sketch where your initial routings would have been for 18 holes on this site.


Cheers
Ben

Hi Ben:


I will post my routing on the ground, thanks.


I don't mind discussing routings - in fact I will probably include this project in my book on routing courses.  But St. Patrick's is not a routing contest - or if it was, I already won it      So while I'm happy to walk the site with Ally and share my thoughts as fellow professionals, it would undermine the project for him to post his routing and have us debate the two here.  Especially before we have even started building something.

100% agree.


As soon as Tom was awarded this, my routing (which the client never saw incidentally) is not for public consumption.


Really intrigued to see what Tom has come up with. I’m sure he has chosen some hole corridors that I did and a whole bunch of stuff that is different.


Ally

Ok fair dinkum guys - I have looked at the different aerials over St Patricks where there have been a few modifications carried out already assuming its by Nicklaus' team - also 36 holes in this area looks very tight and limited whereas 18 holes give you more area and flexibility, more room between holes.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hi Tom and Ally,


Any chance that you can both do a rough outline sketch where your initial routings would have been for 18 holes on this site.


Cheers
Ben

Hi Ben:


I will post my routing on the ground, thanks.


I don't mind discussing routings - in fact I will probably include this project in my book on routing courses.  But St. Patrick's is not a routing contest - or if it was, I already won it      So while I'm happy to walk the site with Ally and share my thoughts as fellow professionals, it would undermine the project for him to post his routing and have us debate the two here.  Especially before we have even started building something.

100% agree.


As soon as Tom was awarded this, my routing (which the client never saw incidentally) is not for public consumption.


Really intrigued to see what Tom has come up with. I’m sure he has chosen some hole corridors that I did and a whole bunch of stuff that is different.


Ally

Ok fair dinkum guys - I have looked at the different aerials over St Patricks where there have been a few modifications carried out already assuming its by Nicklaus' team - also 36 holes in this area looks very tight and limited whereas 18 holes give you more area and flexibility, more room between holes.

18 holes also enables you to use less of the rather awkward central hill / dune as Tom indicated.


When looking at 27, that hill needed to be used more than is probably desirable.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Hi Tom and Ally,


Any chance that you can both do a rough outline sketch where your initial routings would have been for 18 holes on this site.


Cheers
Ben

Hi Ben:


I will post my routing on the ground, thanks.


I don't mind discussing routings - in fact I will probably include this project in my book on routing courses.  But St. Patrick's is not a routing contest - or if it was, I already won it      So while I'm happy to walk the site with Ally and share my thoughts as fellow professionals, it would undermine the project for him to post his routing and have us debate the two here.  Especially before we have even started building something.

100% agree.


As soon as Tom was awarded this, my routing (which the client never saw incidentally) is not for public consumption.


Really intrigued to see what Tom has come up with. I’m sure he has chosen some hole corridors that I did and a whole bunch of stuff that is different.


Ally

Ok fair dinkum guys - I have looked at the different aerials over St Patricks where there have been a few modifications carried out already assuming its by Nicklaus' team - also 36 holes in this area looks very tight and limited whereas 18 holes give you more area and flexibility, more room between holes.

18 holes also enables you to use less of the rather awkward central hill / dune as Tom indicated.


When looking at 27, that hill needed to be used more than is probably desirable.

I'm wondering aloud if the conceptual change from 18 to 27 implies that the Old Tom Morris course, with the old first 9 along the valley and the back 9 now mostly the Coastguard 9 were left intact, and 9 new holes were to compliment the 9 newer holes between the road and the Sandy Hills course, while the other 18 were to be their own course.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm wondering aloud if the conceptual change from 18 to 27 implies that the Old Tom Morris course, with the old first 9 along the valley and the back 9 now mostly the Coastguard 9 were left intact, and 9 new holes were to compliment the 9 newer holes between the road and the Sandy Hills course, while the other 18 were to be their own course.

I'm not sure I followed what you were asking here.


The old Coastguard nine has been altered to eliminate a couple of road crossings, although it still does have one hole where you hit the second shot over a less-traveled road.  Also, I think one of the old holes has been abandoned for real estate.  I don't think there is any thought of returning that nine to the main course.


Additionally, the new front nine of the Valley course [the Old Tom Morris course] is kind of landlocked between the road, Sandy Hills, and farmland that is tied up in a Special Area of Conservation.  There's no way to build a new nine and connect it to that one.


Our solution is to build a totally new 18-hole course on the St. Patrick's land. 


There will still be plenty of ground left over [most of it on the big dune / hill ] if they also want to pursue a par-3 course or something like that down the line . . . but in fact they already have something like that along the road, which looks pretty cool, though I have never got out on it to play.

[Tim Martin]

Has anyone taken the flight from Dublin to Donegal Airport? It seems like that is the closest you can get by air.

[jeffwarne]

Has anyone taken the flight from Dublin to Donegal Airport? It seems like that is the closest you can get by air.

just never lines up with incoming flights to Dublin-faster to drive
For years United flew to Belfast from Newark, most recently(ended in September) Norweigan went from Newburg NY to Belfast.
Amazing as many flights to Dublin as there are that no one nostops to Belfast
perhaps with St. Patricks and narin and P going big time this will change
Not sure how I feel about the masses discovering Donegal....

[Robin_Hiseman]

Tom


I walked the land with Frank Jnr and it is quite stunning. I thought the holes on the hill were better close up than they looked from afar, but I applaud the idea to drop down to 18 only.


I've a couple of questions if you don't mind?


Firstly, is access to the new course coming in from Carrigart, as it did with the old St. Pat's, or will golfers be shuttled out to the start from the Rosapenna pavilion?


How many (if any) of the old hole alignments will you preserve?


LIke Ally, i'd love to walk over it with you if it were possible. It's just a wonderful piece of ground.

[Jonathan Mallard]

I'm wondering aloud if the conceptual change from 18 to 27 implies that the Old Tom Morris course, with the old first 9 along the valley and the back 9 now mostly the Coastguard 9 were left intact, and 9 new holes were to compliment the 9 newer holes between the road and the Sandy Hills course, while the other 18 were to be their own course.

I'm not sure I followed what you were asking here.


The old Coastguard nine has been altered to eliminate a couple of road crossings, although it still does have one hole where you hit the second shot over a less-traveled road.  Also, I think one of the old holes has been abandoned for real estate.  I don't think there is any thought of returning that nine to the main course.


Additionally, the new front nine of the Valley course [the Old Tom Morris course] is kind of landlocked between the road, Sandy Hills, and farmland that is tied up in a Special Area of Conservation.  There's no way to build a new nine and connect it to that one.


Our solution is to build a totally new 18-hole course on the St. Patrick's land. 


There will still be plenty of ground left over [most of it on the big dune / hill ] if they also want to pursue a par-3 course or something like that down the line . . . but in fact they already have something like that along the road, which looks pretty cool, though I have never got out on it to play.

If memory serves, the old 1st hole played west between what appear to be new housing units. The second hole played south over a less traveled road down hill and more parallel to the water. The 10th hole was over the main road, and the second shot on the 18th was back across the same main road that goes on to the hotel and to Downings.


Ergo, if the old OTM routing were to have been left intact, I was asking if the newer 9 that you reference as being landlocked by the farmland were to have been 'appended' by 9 of the 27 holes Ally mentioned, which would produce an additional 18 hole course.

[Brad Tufts]

If anyone is curious about what was there in the previous incarnation, check out:


http://www.stpatricksgolflinks.com/


Click on Course 1 and Course 2 and there are lots of pictures of the original holes.  Pretty neat that this website has survived without these courses in play for quite some time.


There are also a good number of construction photos on the History tab.

Eddie Hackett seems like a great book subject.  Wish I had time to write it!

[Tom_Doak]

Firstly, is access to the new course coming in from Carrigart, as it did with the old St. Pat's, or will golfers be shuttled out to the start from the Rosapenna pavilion?

How many (if any) of the old hole alignments will you preserve?

We have a location for a small clubhouse in the center of the site.    We're still working on which is the better way to access it.


There are only 3-4 of the old holes [the ones in the NE corner of the site, along the fence and just inland from there] that we are using the same alignment and more or less the same green site.  I was never positive about the rest of the routing and especially the holes along the coast that were torn up ten years ago, but I'm pretty sure my routing for those holes is different than what was there before.

[Thomas Dai]

There will still be plenty of ground left over [most of it on the big dune / hill ] if they also want to pursue a par-3 course or something like that down the line . . . but in fact they already have something like that along the road, which looks pretty cool, though I have never got out on it to play.

I spotted their existing short course, it's located near the driving rage, and I still regret not getting out of the car to examine it closer or even play it. The terrain seemed really cool.

And here's a 360* streetcam view from atop the seaward ridge of the Sandy Hills course looking over the back-9 of the OTM course, which is actually mostly HS Colt I believe, and gorgeous Sheephaven Bay -
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.179519,-7.8202137,3a,73.1y,355.55h,71.37t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipNZAUmOg8-jhgXxfkBhXPJySyWBgYpoFLp_Crwr!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNZAUmOg8-jhgXxfkBhXPJySyWBgYpoFLp_Crwr%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-30.000002-ya122.500015-ro0-fo100!7i6912!8i3456

A spectacular area and with a Renaissance course to come! Yippee!!!
atb

[Charles Lund]

I am happy to hear about potential developments at Rosapenna.


I passed through and stayed a few nights in 2009 on my first Ireland trip.  The Rosapenna and Ballyliffin courses offered an interesting contrast in golf and golf culture to upper tier courses.  I returned to Donegal on my my next 12 trips to Ireland and quite frequently spent time in Rosapenna.  I was there in 2012 and Mr. Casey related he had acquired St. Patricks.  I found the wide open spaces of Rosapenna and Ballyliffin to provide solitude in fun golf environments.


There was much enthusiasm last summer when the Irish Open was able to showcase the area during a summer of atypically warm, calm, and dry weather.  The clubs I played at over my time of traveling there offered a  warm welcome and great hospitality.


The many Doak 5 courses always made it a good travel destination for me.  I arrived there by many routes in rental cars from flights into Dublin and Belfast originating in London, Amsterdam, and Reykjavik or by sea from Scotland to Belfast.  I often broke up the drive by staying near Rosses Point or Murvagh on the way to or from and getting in a round or two. 


The single island dual country arrangement never allowed an integrated highway system and made the drive something that evoked curiosity at best but was generally a nuisance.


A flight from Dublin to Donegal Airport was something I did not try. 


The idea of a couple of Doak 7+ courses in the area through creative renovation would be an economic boost to this special place.  Hopefully, people would stay around and experience the range of solid links courses and the great craic.


Best wishes to the people involved in these efforts.


Charles Lund

[Ally Mcintosh]

I haven't yet popped up to see St. Patricks but I've seen enough construction photos to be really, really excited.

Particularly, I'm seeing some of the same holes I had and some other really cool ones which I didn't but that I know exactly how good they will be from walking the land.

Tom says he will be disappointed / fail - no matter the brief - if he doesn't produce an Ireland Top-10. I'd agree with that but I don't think that there is any doubt he will succeed. Breaking a Top-5 is far more difficult but eminently possible having seen what I've seen. In the end, World Top-100 is probably the measure (if anyone still cares).

Especially excited once I read Tom's email that stated that he needed to keep an eye that Eric, Clyde, Angela & co don't go mad with bunkers because the site doesn't need them. If we get lovely green sites, natural contouring and hunkered down and spare bunkering, I know that I am going to absolutely love this course and it will be a step change for Rosapenna and Donegal golf tourism.

Can't wait...

[Dan_Callahan]

I was lucky enough to walk the property last summer. I can't imagine it'll be anything less than spectacular.

With the addition of St. Patrick's to two other very fun courses at Rosapenna, the ongoing Hanse renovations at Narin & Portnoo (I liked it so much, I joined ...), the two courses at Ballyliffin, Cruit Island, Portsalon, and Murvagh, Donegal is becoming one of the most under-the-radar golf destinations in the world. And selfishly, I hope it stays that way.

[jeffwarne]

Any updates?

[Tom_Doak]

Any updates?

Eric, Clyde and Angela are in Ireland right now seeding the last five fairways that we didn't get done last fall.  We had just started to work on them in March when everyone had to go home, and decided it was better to wait til now than try to seed them in high summer.  We haven't put in as much irrigation here as a typical new course because they never water fairways on the other courses, so we were limited in trying to have the whole place in grow-in mode all at once.


All of the greens and approaches were completed and grassed last fall and are in pretty good form today; they should be perfect for an opening next spring.  A bit of preview play is possible on the opening and closing holes this fall.


A well-traveled friend of mine hit it around yesterday and his takeaway was "it's not like anything I've seen in GB&I," which is pretty interesting considering he lives there and has played all over.


Hopefully golf travel to Ireland will be a thing again soon, but whenever it is, there will be a new stop to make.


We will start posting pictures of the course hole by hole on the @stpatrickslinks Instagram page shortly.  One hole per month - so you won't have seen it all before it opens 

[Niall C]

Any updates?

A well-traveled friend of mine hit it around yesterday and his takeaway was "it's not like anything I've seen in GB&I," which is pretty interesting considering he lives there and has played all over.

Is that a good thing ? Not saying it's not good architecture obviously but just thinking in terms of "a sense of place".


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

We will start posting pictures of the course hole by hole on the @stpatrickslinks Instagram page shortly.  One hole per month - so you won't have seen it all before it opens 

Teaser!
Astute and Cunnin' though!
atb

[Bill Gayne]

Potential for a future BUDA?

[Tom_Doak]

Is that a good thing ? Not saying it's not good architecture obviously but just thinking in terms of "a sense of place".

Niall

One thing I am not worried about is whether the course will have a sense of place.  The views are 360 degrees and the course is very much a part of its environment.


The two things mentioned specifically were how much property the course explores (there ard only a couple of sections where fairways are anywhere close together, unlike Lahinch or Ballybunion), and how much contour there is around the greens and in a few greens, so that not a lot of greenside bunkers are used.


He was also a big fan of my trick in the routing, which I don't want to spoil by discussing just yet.