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wsmorrison

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2003, 04:24:29 PM »
George,

I understand your point.  I think what I've been trying to say is clear to you and othres as well.  It appears that many of us are in accord.  Lists are often used as a substitute or replacement for one's own thinking.  Perhaps not among those that participate on this website, we for the most part have a strong background in the subject matter.  But the average reader of the wide circulation magazines (less so perhaps for GW) do not have the background to understand any meaning to a list except on a superficial level.  

Unless the list is included in a comprehensive analysis there is nothing really offered to the uniformed public.  I don't see how these lists of rankings provide the stimulus for people to better understand golf course architecture except on a first step level.  Reading books by Shackelford, Mackenzie, Thomas, Doak, etc., studying hole drawings and routing maps, discussing golf architecture with experts, and getting out there and seeing (not playing) courses for yourself is the only way.  I don't want anyone else's opinions.  I want to discover my own.  You think the rankers are experts?  I am not so sure.  Seeing 1000 courses is no different than seeing 1000 paintings.  It is how you see them and how you study them that is important.


redanman,

I am sorry, I did mean rankings.  And you are correct, they are not interchangable.  As far as course rating, that is, as you say, a different matter and one of keen importance to the golf handicap system.

However, it is foolish of you to insinuate that I discount a published list because it is not reflective of my own views.  Firstly, you don't know what my views are.  Secondy, I don't rank courses so it is a non-issue; rankings make no sense to me, there are too many variables for it to have any real validity.  DPL11 and others agree that it is a huge waste of time and emotional investment.  

I do compare and contrast Flynn courses for my Flynn book project as there is one less significant variable (same architect) and I do it from an historical perspective to study design evolution and tendencies.  But I try to consider site specific issues such as topography, soil type, club demands and budget, etc.  

As to how Tom Paul and I conduct our research and writing, wait till we're done and decide for yourself if it meets or exceeds acceptible standards of historical analysis.  But we are who we are and we think what we think.  Our personalities will be a part of our philosophies and be reflected in our writing.  I just hope that we express our ideas well and we'll leave it to others to judge the merits.  We'll be happy with the result regardless.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2003, 04:27:34 PM by wsmorrison »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2003, 04:58:34 PM »
Wayne makes a good point about how you "see the courses and how you study them".  There is a difference.  But frankly I have met very few guys who rate courses for the various magazines that I didn't respect.  In fact I've enjoyed meeting and playing golf with everyone of them.  Each has their opinions and we don't agree on everything but that is what makes it interesting.  Furthermore, I have met very few who are in it just for the "free golf".  Frankly the golf is never free as most of us spend thousands of dollars traveling all over the world on our own time to get to these courses and it's not for a free green fee  ;)  Many of us are passionate about golf architecture and have backed up our playing with reading and studying all those books Wayne refers to.  It's also why many participate from time to time on this website.  The raters aren't doing it for access, they already have that.  Most do it because they are interested in golf courses and learning about what courses they might study next and how they might look at them differently.  One thing I will say is that is helps playing a course vs. just walking around it.  Ideally you do both but playing is necessary IMHO to get the best feel.  Watching others play is also helpful.  Another advantage of getting to see numerous courses is it gives you great perspective.  You often get to play with the Superintendent, or the Grounds Chairman, and sometimes even with the Architect.   It is great getting their perspective on the design, maintenance practices, etc.  Most clubs are very accomodating and are willing to show you old photos of the course, talk about all the changes they've seen and/or been involved with, on and on.  

Anyway, got to run.  I'm watching a tape with the kids of the Westminster Dog Show.  Can you believe someone is actually rating which dogs are the best  ;)  How can they do that?  
Mark

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2003, 08:21:35 PM »
Mark, Great post.

Wayne, While I'll side with you regarding the silliness of some of the final product, but my efforts, as well as many others are of nothing but the best effort in a world that is going to have some sort of scale whether we like it or not.

I'm a student of the Game first, and I liken my findings as research, and in many cases (Mark will tell you) various opinions of what I have found from studying.

Say hypothetically, there were no ranking panels--what level do you think golf architectural interest be then? I suspect it would be far and away different, and not nearly as popular amongst us masses--I'll even let you come to your own conclusions! :) Perhaps Ron Whitten would even be out of a job!

Last night I called Brad Klein to talk for a bit, and he literally was ready to jump out of his skin. He was workign on the talley of all of the ballots that have been pouring in. He said to me, "You don't know how much work this is!" I replied, 'Oh yes I do!," and he replied--"NO, you don't!" I for one believe him now for sure. Compiling this stuff--making sure all of the raters are getting in their ballots ON TIME, handling calls regarding out of control panelists, etc. has to takes its toll somewhere amongst the task of performing his daily duties of writing for a living. In fact, my call affected him from getting work done I'm sure!

Then you have other panelists who will go out of their way to see as many courses to aid in this quest--spending their own money to travel and see courses, having to call many of these places and deal with the endless seasons in phone hell that amount to ten calls to their one. It isn't easy doing this stuff--and it amounts to the same thing you get form particpating on Golf Club Atlas--further knowledge of golf architecture. At least that's what I do it for. I don't consider myself an authority, I consider myself a student first and last--I have so much to learn as well as an open mind to learn it.

But the thing that ruins it all is when you see or hear of panelists that have little regard to golf architecture and are authorities on the subject. They are the ones that have to keep score of their round, or tabs of what course slope ratings and yardages. I can't remember who it was, but a while back someone who was actively petitioning himself for membership on the Golfweek panel, actually wrote to me, "You don't know what it would mean to me to have the "magic card." and I felt that was quite odd. That is what it means to him a card that gets him on courses, and given his supposedly astute knowledge of the golf courses, if I remember right, he ended up on the right panel--the Golf Digest panel.

This is the type of guy that ruins it because its all about free golf. But as my Father once taught me, "Son, nothing in this life is free" and I think that should be reason enough to understand that ranking golf courses is not neccessarily a free thing, but something that requires time, money and travel, and foremost--an open mind.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2003, 08:24:40 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

wsmorrison

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2003, 09:06:43 PM »
Mark and Tommy,

Well stated.  Thank you.  I certainly have come to know a number of excellent men of character that are on ranking panels and hope these represent the ideal and majority of panelists.

Regards,
Wayne  

GeoffreyC

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2003, 08:58:13 AM »
Mayday-

I'm not trying to stir things up again but Hidden Creek is NOT (yet at least) on the Golfweek list of top 100 modern courses.  It is a strong contender and a wonderful course that I should probably go to see again.  We will see in March if it actually makes it on to the list. I don't think there would be much argument if it did make this list.

Instead, Hidden Creek made the Golf Magazine list of top 100 courses in the US with a debut at #73 in the country.  Ran is on this panel along with another GCA participant. So, this panel does think that HC should be on this list instead of Rolling Green, Huntingdon Valley and Lehigh to name three Flynn courses in your area (I don't recall if Phillie CC is also excluded). It made the list instead of several in my area including Fenway and Westchester and was within six places of Plainfield CC which in my opinion is an underappreciated gem.

This created discussion and that's fine since a controversial choice like this will do so but it seems to me that DPL11 and SL1 whomever they are doth protest way too much when someone suggests that other courses are more worthy of these lists that they care so little about.

TEPaul

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2003, 09:37:42 AM »
It really doesn't matter where HC comes in on those lists versus other courses because as Brad Klein says on another thread, and I totally agree with, all of you are full of shit anyway!   ;)

Although I do happen to appear to agree with Brad on this matter, the truth is he's full of shit too.   ;)

DPL11

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2003, 10:59:18 AM »
Geoffrey,

I wouldn't say that I protest too much, since this was the first time I posted anything about HC and the rankings. My original question was directed at how HC ever entered a discussion about how much we love RG.

There are many on this site that feel the same way about HC that I do, but then there are also a few that continuously start the same debate over and over. It just gets old, and really who cares.

BTW, I have played every course that you listed in your post, and love them all. I wouldn't really want to rank them against each other, but thats why they made chocolate & vanilla.

DPL11

PS-If you want to know who I am, look it up in the thread "Who are you guys revisited". I'm not hiding from anyone.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2003, 08:08:47 PM »
 Regardless of which list HC is on and RG is not,i only used it as an example of a recently played course that seemed to fall short of RG.
   When i got back to RG this Saturday,i again felt playing #9---did they have a hole like this at HC? Not IMHO.

   
AKA Mayday