The Next Generation

[Tom_Doak]

DAN RATHER: "Do you like the way country music is going today?"

VINCE GILL: "I do. It's not my cup of tea, but I don't know if I was Merle Haggard's cup of tea when I first got going. And I don't know if Merle Haggard was Roy Acuff's cup of tea. I don't know if Roy Acuff was Jimmie Rodgers' cup of tea. You know what I'm saying? To me, to be "that" guy that looks back, you sound like a curmudgeon, you sound like you're bitter, you sound like all those things. I love seeing kids come along and being moved by what they're moved by. I don't care that they're not moved by the same things I am. I love seeing young people just out there doing what they love. There's not a rule book that says you have to like this, or it doesn't count or you're not as good. I'm not gonna be that guy. There's a lot of it I'm not crazy about but it's not personal. They don't have anybody cheering for them harder than I do."

Mike:


That's a good quote and I agree with it.  I don't care if someone else is doing things differently, as long as the result is good work.  Indeed there is a lot to be said for their courage to take a different approach.


It's been really interesting to do the routing for The Tree Farm, and then step back and see what they are doing with it.  The last few holes are nothing at all like what I would have built, even with the tees and greens in places I picked out.  [Zac did move the 18th hole.]  Will people like it better because of that?  I did go and direct the shaping of a few of the other greens, just for contrast.


I did not mention my current intern Brian Zager, because he's not got nearly as much experience to be mentioned in the same league with some of the others on this thread, but he is coming at things from a completely different, computer-oriented take, and I have probably learned as much from him as he has from me.  He is 100% convinced he can create a great course from a lidar base map and a computer screen, which has yet to happen, but I feel like I am running the Apollo program to slowly test it out, one part at a time:


1:  can we make a really accurate map of an old course?
2:  can we rebuild a course in a new location from an old map?
3:  can we integrate a compatible hole from another course into a new design?
4:  can we grade a hole on the computer and then have the machines do it in the field, as if we were running the machines?
5:  can I take a hole I never got to build, and build it somewhere else?


We will try steps 3 & 4 over the next year and see how they go.  Of course, in the end, you still have to make the right decisions for the hole to turn out well.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks for that, Tom: it's interesting in that it suggests the 'next generation' might be characterized not by new thoughts but by new ways of thinking -- not by different ideas but by a different experience/understanding of where ideas come from.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tom,


I’ll be really interested to hear how you get on with No.4. Unless I’m misunderstanding you, that is in essence the “traditional” paper design / tendered contract methodology.


One of the reasons I prefer - like you - a substantial amount of design in the field is that I’ve yet to see a course built to detailed plan that looks like a perfect fit to nature (I.e. like it hasn’t been “designed”). Often, the shaping in the ground immediately brings to mind contours on a plan.


You obviously have a project in mind. Be good to hear what kind of site it is and in future to see your detailing which I expect will be more intricate than the long sweeps we often see from drawing based builds.

[Mike_Young]

Tom,I like that quote also.  I don't even try to figure what will be done differently anymore.  I continue to be amazed at how social media has changed golf since both of us got into it.  And mostly it is for the good...

[Ira Fishman]

DAN RATHER: "Do you like the way country music is going today?"

VINCE GILL: "I do. It's not my cup of tea, but I don't know if I was Merle Haggard's cup of tea when I first got going. And I don't know if Merle Haggard was Roy Acuff's cup of tea. I don't know if Roy Acuff was Jimmie Rodgers' cup of tea. You know what I'm saying? To me, to be "that" guy that looks back, you sound like a curmudgeon, you sound like you're bitter, you sound like all those things. I love seeing kids come along and being moved by what they're moved by. I don't care that they're not moved by the same things I am. I love seeing young people just out there doing what they love. There's not a rule book that says you have to like this, or it doesn't count or you're not as good. I'm not gonna be that guy. There's a lot of it I'm not crazy about but it's not personal. They don't have anybody cheering for them harder than I do."

Mike:


That's a good quote and I agree with it.  I don't care if someone else is doing things differently, as long as the result is good work.  Indeed there is a lot to be said for their courage to take a different approach.


It's been really interesting to do the routing for The Tree Farm, and then step back and see what they are doing with it.  The last few holes are nothing at all like what I would have built, even with the tees and greens in places I picked out.  [Zac did move the 18th hole.]  Will people like it better because of that?  I did go and direct the shaping of a few of the other greens, just for contrast.


I did not mention my current intern Brian Zager, because he's not got nearly as much experience to be mentioned in the same league with some of the others on this thread, but he is coming at things from a completely different, computer-oriented take, and I have probably learned as much from him as he has from me.  He is 100% convinced he can create a great course from a lidar base map and a computer screen, which has yet to happen, but I feel like I am running the Apollo program to slowly test it out, one part at a time:


1:  can we make a really accurate map of an old course?
2:  can we rebuild a course in a new location from an old map?
3:  can we integrate a compatible hole from another course into a new design?
4:  can we grade a hole on the computer and then have the machines do it in the field, as if we were running the machines?
5:  can I take a hole I never got to build, and build it somewhere else?


We will try steps 3 & 4 over the next year and see how they go.  Of course, in the end, you still have to make the right decisions for the hole to turn out well.

Fortunately, by the time we reach the Singularity, Mike Y and I will still be looking for the best place to hear real music.


And good for Zac and his team to pursue something that you would not have done.


Ira

[Terry Lavin]

Mike Young, et al:


Mama tried to raise me better, but her pleading I denied, that leaves only me to blame ‘cause Mama tried.


I covered a Merle Haggard concert back in 1975 and I still listen today. I try to get into Sturgill Simpson and others, but it’s taking some time. Tonight I think I’ll drift off to Dwight Yoakam and Buck Owens.


And if spring ever arrives, I’ll enjoy Tyler Rae’s reinterpolation (if that’s a word) of Donald Ross’s work at Beverly CC. Even an old timer should have room in his rusty heart for a new sheen on the old course.

[Mike_Young]

Mike Young, et al:


Mama tried to raise me better, but her pleading I denied, that leaves only me to blame ‘cause Mama tried.


I covered a Merle Haggard concert back in 1975 and I still listen today. I try to get into Sturgill Simpson and others, but it’s taking some time. Tonight I think I’ll drift off to Dwight Yoakam and Buck Owens.


And if spring ever arrives, I’ll enjoy Tyler Rae’s reinterpolation (if that’s a word) of Donald Ross’s work at Beverly CC. Even an old timer should have room in his rusty heart for a new sheen on the old course.

You need to go on and get used to these two and Isbells wife Highwomen group:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lsran_Slzc  and this guy   :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivYkyC8J29M   and   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaUCDqWzy1k    and  Amanda Shires Highwomen   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kerzNA6fSc4  and  and the best  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlvCcwynz2o     that's the next generation dude....

[John Kirk]

Modern country artists that show up in my playlist the last couple years include:

Charley Crockett

Sierra Farrell

Emily Sue Robinson

I'm way outside the mainstream as an old guy.  Crockett sings with a lisp, but he's got that authentic sound.  And I agree with Mike Young about the Highwomen.  In my opinion, the women who write and sing country songs are where the exciting music is being made.  Sturgill Simpson has a bluegrass album out; it's pretty good.

Here's Sierra Farrell singing the Whispering Waltz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0LzBzTL16o

[Jeff Schley]

Another way of maybe scouting this is enrollment numbers for landscape architecture or similar (turfgrass) at the best universities for this degree. The next generation may not have graduated yet, who knows.

[Mike Bodo]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Tiger in this thread. His Payne's Valley track has gotten a lot of favorable pub. Having yet to play the course I can't really comment on it from an architectural and design standpoint, but from the photos I've seen it looks amazing. Because he's an established and recognized brand, I'm sure his design company will have plenty of work thrown its way, if it doesn't already. The question yet to be determined is does he have a flair for design and what makes a great course or are others in his company doing it for him and he just reviews and signs off on plans and contracts, a la Arnold Palmer?


Also, while others here have commented on how you can't come into the profession with the intent on becoming the next "big thing" I call bullocks on that. If you have a desire to be the best at any occupation it requires a bit of ego and a highly competitive streak. That's just human nature. Also, in the digital age we live in, there is no substitute for having a name brand and utilizing social media to feed into that. There's an upper echelon in every profession and you can apply the 20 - 80 rule to just about all of them. Golf course design is no exception. 20% of the architects are doing 80% of the new construction, renovation and restoration work while the other 80% are left to fight for the crumbs. That's the nature of the beast and no one here will convince me otherwise.


The real question on this thread should be who are the up and coming "brand" architects? I'd definitely put Tiger at the top of the list, in addition to David Kidd, Kyle Franz and a few others (don't discount Zac Blair). All are in some phase of building their brands, while those, such as Tiger and David, are already established. There were a lot of good names in the original list provided and those added by others who have commented, but who are the standouts really going to be? It's yet to be determined, but as in all industries there will be a pecking order or hierarchy established. Again, human nature at work.


We know who today's "brand" architects are. We're blessed to have several of them contribute here on the regular and I include Ally in that conversation for the amazing work he'd done across the pond. I'm sure there are some potentially great up and coming UK and European architects that are being overlooked simply because most of the U.S. posters here don't know who they are and aren't close to the ground on developments there, but I'm sure there will be a few standouts outside the U.S. That said, when the Doak's, Coore - Crenshaw's, Hanses, Fazio's, Nicklaus' and Weiskopf's of the world decide to call it a day, it will be interesting to see the names that occupy the top of the golf architectural leaderboard.

[David Cronan]

Kevin Hargrave- Georgetown, KY


Keith Foster’s longtime design associate so has worked on many renovations and restorations of some respected courses. Hung out his shingle 15-20 years ago and still works with Foster, as well.

[Mike_Young]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Tiger in this thread. His Payne's Valley track has gotten a lot of favorable pub. Having yet to play the course I can't really comment on it from an architectural and design standpoint, but from the photos I've seen it looks amazing. Because he's an established and recognized brand, I'm sure his design company will have plenty of work thrown its way, if it doesn't already. The question yet to be determined is does he have a flair for design and what makes a great course or are others in his company doing it for him and he just reviews and signs off on plans and contracts, a la Arnold Palmer?


Also, while others here have commented on how you can't come into the profession with the intent on becoming the next "big thing" I call bullocks on that. If you have a desire to be the best at any occupation it requires a bit of ego and a highly competitive streak. That's just human nature. Also, in the digital age we live in, there is no substitute for having a name brand and utilizing social media to feed into that. There's an upper echelon in every profession and you can apply the 20 - 80 rule to just about all of them. Golf course design is no exception. 20% of the architects are doing 80% of the new construction, renovation and restoration work while the other 80% are left to fight for the crumbs. That's the nature of the beast and no one here will convince me otherwise.


The real question on this thread should be who are the up and coming "brand" architects? I'd definitely put Tiger at the top of the list, in addition to David Kidd, Kyle Franz and a few others (don't discount Zac Blair). All are in some phase of building their brands, while those, such as Tiger and David, are already established. There were a lot of good names in the original list provided and those added by others who have commented, but who are the standouts really going to be? It's yet to be determined, but as in all industries there will be a pecking order or hierarchy established. Again, human nature at work.


We know who today's "brand" architects are. We're blessed to have several of them contribute here on the regular and I include Ally in that conversation for the amazing work he'd done across the pond. I'm sure there are some potentially great up and coming UK and European architects that are being overlooked simply because most of the U.S. posters here don't know who they are and aren't close to the ground on developments there, but I'm sure there will be a few standouts outside the U.S. That said, when the Doak's, Coore - Crenshaw's, Hanses, Fazio's, Nicklaus' and Weiskopf's of the world decide to call it a day, it will be interesting to see the names that occupy the top of the golf architectural leaderboard.

Mike,Tiger put hours, days, months, years into practice to be the best at playing the game.  Some of these young guys have done the same staying away from home and working thousands of hours on mini ex, dozers and trackhoes to learn the business.  IIMHO it is disrespectful to TW when people say someone is the next TW and they don't put in near the practice he does.  I think the same is true for young guys coming along today....can't touch that    I don't think there will be another era where professional golfers are used due to high marketing appeal and low design skills...the professional golfers hired in the future will have to show desgin skills also...JMO

[Morgan Clawson]

Very timely post / subject.


Keith Rhebb, Riley John’s, Kyle Franz and Mike Nuzzo get the call at Cabot Citrus Farms.


And Don Mahaffey too.


Congrats all.  Looking forward to seeing it.


Cc: Dixie Cup Committee

[Tim Martin]

Very timely post / subject.


Keith Rhebb, Riley John’s, Kyle Franz and Mike Nuzzo get the call at Cabot Citrus Farms.


And Don Mahaffey too.


Congrats all.  Looking forward to seeing it.


Cc: Dixie Cup Committee

+1

[John Kirk]

Very timely post / subject.


Keith Rhebb, Riley John’s, Kyle Franz and Mike Nuzzo get the call at Cabot Citrus Farms.


And Don Mahaffey too.


Congrats all.  Looking forward to seeing it.


Cc: Dixie Cup Committee

Oh wow, great news.  Congratulations!