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Niall C

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Re: Olympic Golf Growth "bulls..t"
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2016, 07:16:56 AM »
MClutterbuck

This is what Wilkie actually said;

“I think it’s wrong for those players to say there aren’t enough Indians or Africans playing the game without realising the impact and environmental damage a golf course would do in those countries,” said Wilkie. “You just have to go to those underdeveloped countries in terms of golf and look at the amount of money it would take to build a golf course and the destruction it would cause of forests. It’s utter rubbish to pretend that, by making golf part of the Olympic Games, you’re going to attract a poor guy in India to play. They just can’t afford it.

His comments are clearly aimed at addressing the growth of the game argument and explaining why he thinks it’s a bogus. In doing so he’s referenced Indians and Africans as examples where, in his view, the growth of game argument is ill-conceived for both environmental reasons and economic reasons. If you want you can argue that he’s referring to the Indian and African races rather than citizens of the various African and Indian countries, but even so would that make him racist ? Here’s a random definition of racism that I’ve taken from the internet;

“Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.”

Where’s the prejudice, or antagonism, or discrimination in Wilkies statement ? He’s not saying anything derogatory or hateful about Africans or Indians nor is he looking to discriminate against them. What he’s suggesting (and yes, this is my interpretation) is that the average guy in India and presumably Africa as well isn’t going to benefit from a multi-million pound golf course built in Brazil, on the basis that the average guy in those countries is too poor to play the sport. On that basis why should the Olympics be looking to promote the game there ? He’s not saying that Africans and Indians can’t or shouldn’t play golf (that’s a fact and not my interpretation).

If you think Wilkie is a racist for saying what he said then you can also call me one as well. I’d have no problem with that. I’d certainly object if others called me a racist but based on what you seem to think constitutes racism then I’d have absolutely no problem you calling me a racist.

With regards points 1, 2, 6 and 7 in your earlier post that you asked me to address, let me do so;

1. There is a huge high and middle-high income segment in Brazil that can benefit from a public course. In Rio and surrounding areas only there has to be more than 1 million people that can afford golf.

Assuming for the moment that your figure is based on actual demographics and hasn’t merely been plucked out the air, your point doesn’t address Wilkies argument about growing the game in Africa and India and such like.

 2. Rio and Brasil in general need golf courses to attract tourism. The golf course if well managed could be a large boost to tourism in Brazil at a time they need it.

I suspect that greatly reducing the level of crime and wiping out the Zika virus will do a lot, lot more for tourism than development a golf course, or even half a dozen golf courses. Indeed you argument reminds me of Trumps argument for building Balmedie and that was that building his golf course would offset the decline in the oil industry in Aberdeen which is like suggesting the use a sticking plaster on a severed limb. However Wilkies comments weren’t aimed at tourism but at the growth of the game amongst native peoples.

 6. Tell excellent African and Indian golfers their countrymen are not "entitled" to have good golf courses.
 
 Presumably you have “entitled” in inverted commas for a reason ? Wilkie didn’t say it in the article and as I pointed out above he didn’t say or indeed imply that Africans and Indians can’t or shouldn’t play golf so not sure who your point is addressed to.

 7. Why does Scotland have the right to build hundreds of golf courses in a small country and Brazil and India can´t have a few dozen courses in huge countries if built responsibly?

David Wilkie is an individual and expressing his own personal views. He has no right or authority that I know of to express an opinion on behalf of Scotland or dictate to any other country what it can and cannot do. He is only expressing an opinion. I think most folk recognise that, but I’m not sure you do. (As an aside I’d also point out that he was born and spent his early years in Sri Lanka, was later educated in Scotland, then lived in America for a while and now lives in England. I’d imagine he doesn’t speak for those other countries either)

Of course each country has its right to self-determination and that includes deciding whether it will allow the building of golf courses. However the point Wilkie was addressing was not what individual countries should allow in their own borders but whether a sporting organisation, namely the Olympic movement, should be promoting a particular sport on the grounds of growing that sport in certain countries. That’s what the discussion is about, not alleged racism.
 
Niall


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« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 11:40:26 AM by Niall C »

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Golf Growth "bulls..t"
« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2016, 10:30:30 AM »
So why again somebody from Scotland determines that a country that is 100 times larger than their own in area, and has 40 times the population of Scotland, and not even 5% of the number of courses, and that by all accounts is richer than Scotland was when the bulk of Scottish courses were built should not build one public golf course paid for by a private developer using a first class architect that will apply their own environmental standards on top of those of Brazil (which are actually quite strict)?


Because Brazilians are different and poorer and should be doing other things rather than golf...


Brazilian is a nationality not a race to start with so you are confusing issues of nationality with race. Secondly, as far as I can see he is just expressing his opinion that maybe they might have other priorities other than building golf courses. He has not said they should not do something because of their race which would be racist. Wilkie's position is no more racist than saying someone cannot have an opinion because they come from Scotland. You may find such an opinion wrong or small minded but that does not make it racist.


Jon


Jon, you are correct, and that is why I added Xenophobic, that relates to nationality. But it also happens that the 2 countries and 1 continent are largely populated by people of another race.


I dont want to waste too much time on this, but I distinguish from a comment that comes across as racist from a racist person. I know nothing about Wilkies, so I do not want to extend my comments to his person.

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Golf Growth "bulls..t"
« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2016, 10:32:43 AM »
Wilkie has done rather well out of his gold.

As for Americans never having heard of him just remember US TV didn't even show Bolt live winning the 100m in London. It was shown 5 hours later. The Paralympics, are you aware every session in the stadium in London SOLD OUT, everyone wanted to see the superhumans in action?

The World Cup is a total disgrace, corruption is the only key to getting the tournament.


Mark, I agree it is a disgrace in how it is obtained and how it is organized. Not too different than the Olympics by the way. Both are still hugely important events that are pure joy to watch and experience.

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Golf Growth "bulls..t"
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2016, 11:10:02 AM »
Niall, you are probably going to be more clever than me in arguing in favor of what Wilkies said in your first language and my second language. I dont know him, I admire his Olympic medal. I believe his expressions, or at least how i have seen them in the linked article are at least xenophobic (definition that includes showing prejudice towards people of other nationality) and they come across to me as racist as well. I am a strange case of Scottish, Brazilian and Argentine blood. The comments feel offensive.  I would not consider him to be a racist based on these comments though. Most racist comments are bread in ignorance.


I cant address each one of your points at this time, but in using Africa and India, he was also including Brazil. You can not apply things to only India when we are talking about Brazil. If we focus on the grow the game aspect, which might be more the golf industry than the Olympic movement, presumably Brazil is included in the grow the game. The greater Rio de Janeiro Metropolitan area has 15 million people. I assumed that 6.67% could afford golf. I dont think it is far fetched.


It seems like you are picking and choosing individual parts of the statements, when I take it as a whole.
Wilkies is saying golf at the Olympics is wrong because these countries should not spend the money on golf and destroy forests to build courses, and that is plain wrong. Golf is a magnificent medium to educate people and I will defend golf in poor communities always.


You are also countering with other factors that are unrelated. It is true Zika and crime pose a larger threat to tourism. That does not mean a public golf course would not be a boom for tourism. In Buenos Aires, visiting golfers form the highest spending segment of tourists. Adding Rio to the trip makes sense.






Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Olympic Golf Growth "bulls..t"
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2016, 11:43:24 AM »

You are also countering with other factors that are unrelated. It is true Zika and crime pose a larger threat to tourism. That does not mean a public golf course would not be a boom for tourism. In Buenos Aires, visiting golfers form the highest spending segment of tourists. Adding Rio to the trip makes sense.


I am a bit skeptical of claims that golf development creates a boom in international tourism.


Barnbougle Dunes is a very successful course, open to the public, in a country that's easy for foreigners to visit.  95% of their business is from Australians.  5% [a bit over 1,000 rounds per year] is from international visitors.


Cape Kidnappers and Kauri Cliffs are priced out of the local market, so most of their business is from overseas visitors, but the numbers are only a few thousand for each ... or, about 0.2% of the 2.8 million international visitors in 2014.


The course in Rio will hopefully do a lot more business than that from international tourists who are already visiting Rio, but I do not think it will have any significant impact on the number of people who visit Rio.


I'm curious, though, about your last statement about visiting golfers to Buenos Aires.  Most of the courses we saw are private.  How do tourists visit them, and where are they coming from?  I would assume that the biggest influx of golf tourists to Rio would be from Argentina, but on the other hand, perhaps this only offsets the number of Brazilians who go to B.A. to play.


[Note:  I always wonder how long the virtuous circle of tourism can continue.  I was in San Francisco last week and saw a Pure Michigan ad for Ann Arbor!]

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Golf Growth "bulls..t"
« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2016, 11:56:55 AM »
Tom,

In all fairness, Rio is nowhere near as remote as New Zealand or Tasmania.  Coming from the US, Europe or Africa, its not that long of a journey to get there. However, Tasmania and NZ are remote to just about every location in the world outside of Australia and NZ.

Then when you factor in populations, South America has a population of 385 Million and North America has 528 Million not terribly far away, that's a fairly sizeable base to draw from.

Contrast that to Australia and New Zealand with less than 30 million people combined, with no one else nearby, and I think comparing physical access to those courses as to the one in Rio is Apples and Oranges.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 12:00:04 PM by Kalen Braley »

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Golf Growth "bulls..t"
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2016, 12:58:41 PM »

You are also countering with other factors that are unrelated. It is true Zika and crime pose a larger threat to tourism. That does not mean a public golf course would not be a boom for tourism. In Buenos Aires, visiting golfers form the highest spending segment of tourists. Adding Rio to the trip makes sense.


I am a bit skeptical of claims that golf development creates a boom in international tourism.

The course in Rio will hopefully do a lot more business than that from international tourists who are already visiting Rio, but I do not think it will have any significant impact on the number of people who visit Rio.

I'm curious, though, about your last statement about visiting golfers to Buenos Aires.  Most of the courses we saw are private.  How do tourists visit them, and where are they coming from?  I would assume that the biggest influx of golf tourists to Rio would be from Argentina, but on the other hand, perhaps this only offsets the number of Brazilians who go to B.A. to play.



Tom, "boom" is probably a strong word, but I used it in the context of growing from probably zero. I dont know anybody that travels to Brazil to play golf.


With respect to Buenos Aires, there are a number of tour operators that work with European (especially) and American (fewer) players that come specifically for golf. These operators get you on San Andres, Jockey Club, Olivos, Buenos Aires Golf Club and others, mostly Tuesdays through Thursdays, and less so on Fridays and Sundays. The courses are private but happy to sell green fees to get US Dollars.


There are also things like Argentina Golf week, were a large group of players play in an invitational at 4 clubs in consecutive days, including Olivos and San Andres. These events are well liked for their post golf meals and barbeques and all that surrounds golf in Argentina as you have seen.


Some clubs have also agreements with the high end hotels that send individual players to play. This is more common with Americans on business trips. Americans that come down to hunt (sometimes half the business class cabin from DFW to EZE) also sometimes golf a round or two.


Is golf tourism a huge number? No. But still important. So much so that the Ministry of Tourism of the former socialist government identified it as one of the drivers of tourism revenue growth. Does it include Brazilians? Very few, Brazilians that golf today are very few, rich and have access to US Courses and prefer to play there.


A lot of the Europeans that come to Buenos Aires fly through Brazil. Would the ones coming to golf in Argentina stay a few nights in Rio? My bet is they would.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Golf Growth "bulls..t"
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2016, 02:23:27 PM »
So why again somebody from Scotland determines that a country that is 100 times larger than their own in area, and has 40 times the population of Scotland, and not even 5% of the number of courses, and that by all accounts is richer than Scotland was when the bulk of Scottish courses were built should not build one public golf course paid for by a private developer using a first class architect that will apply their own environmental standards on top of those of Brazil (which are actually quite strict)?


Because Brazilians are different and poorer and should be doing other things rather than golf...


Brazilian is a nationality not a race to start with so you are confusing issues of nationality with race. Secondly, as far as I can see he is just expressing his opinion that maybe they might have other priorities other than building golf courses. He has not said they should not do something because of their race which would be racist. Wilkie's position is no more racist than saying someone cannot have an opinion because they come from Scotland. You may find such an opinion wrong or small minded but that does not make it racist.


Jon


Jon, you are correct, and that is why I added Xenophobic, that relates to nationality. But it also happens that the 2 countries and 1 continent are largely populated by people of another race.


I dont want to waste too much time on this, but I distinguish from a comment that comes across as racist from a racist person. I know nothing about Wilkies, so I do not want to extend my comments to his person.


?,


part of the point of my answer was to point out that you are calling someone xenophobic whilst by your own standards being exactly that about people living in Scotland. I would not consider either Wilkie's or your comments as either racist or xenophobic but if you are going to start pointing fingers you need to at the very least live up to the standards you wish to set for others yourself.


Jon

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Golf Growth "bulls..t"
« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2016, 02:28:19 PM »
Mistake, deleted
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 02:36:31 PM by MClutterbuck »

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Golf Growth "bulls..t"
« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2016, 02:32:19 PM »
Jon, how did I offend people living in Scotland? Would never do that knowingly. Please point it out.

I knowingly just spoke of Wilkie´s comments, not even his person. He might be a true gentleman making an unfortunate comment.

Marcos
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 02:36:52 PM by MClutterbuck »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Golf Growth "bulls..t"
« Reply #60 on: May 05, 2016, 02:37:58 PM »
Because you based part of your argument against Wilkie on the fact that due to where Scotland was situated on the subject of courses and wealth, size, etc. Someone from there should not have an opinion about golf in Brasil. Yes, you did use 'determine' not opinion but as Wilkie was expressing an opinion about not determining for your intended meaning is quite clear. Or at least you could read it that way should you be so inclined. I am not having a go at you but just pointing out how even your comments might appear. It really is a minefield when you start throwing accusations of xenophobia  and racism out there ::)


Jon

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Golf Growth "bulls..t" New
« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2016, 02:56:05 PM »
Because you based part of your argument against Wilkie on the fact that due to where Scotland was situated on the subject of courses and wealth, size, etc. Someone from there should not have an opinion about golf in Brasil. Yes, you did use 'determine' not opinion but as Wilkie was expressing an opinion about not determining for your intended meaning is quite clear. Or at least you could read it that way should you be so inclined. I am not having a go at you but just pointing out how even your comments might appear. It really is a minefield when you start throwing accusations of xenophobia  and racism out there ::)


Jon


I dont follow that line of argument. I did not state any negativity with respect to the amount of courses in Scotland, nor anything in Scotland nor I am intending to tell the people of Scotland how to manage their country and development.


Furthermore, I very much think Scots can have an opinion about golf in Brazil and we actually choose to be governed mostly by Scots in our sport, don´t we? All of Latin America golf is governed by the R&A. 


The problem is when the opinion is based on false facts and prejudice (course destroying the forest, implication of public funds used for this instead of better purposes, people in these countries can not/will not benefit from golf, etc.).


The caddy program in my club has educated kids born in absolute poverty and that are not allowed to attend school by their parents and tought them morals, rule of law, discipline, and ultimately many have gone on to get full time jobs with members. I am proud of the role of golf in our society.


I wonder what would happen if a top sports figure from a rich State in the US would say the same about the poorest State in the US.


In any event, my second last name is Campbell, I have Scottish heritage and cousins and as some in this forum can attest, I look Scottish. In no way would I speak negatively of Scotland. I think that based on nationality I am only negative on my own countrymen, for several very visible reasons. 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 09:23:11 AM by MClutterbuck »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Golf Growth "bulls..t"
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2017, 05:30:16 PM »
There are several threads about the Brazil Olympic course so I picked this one at randum to link to this interesting piece in the UK's National Club Golfer -
http://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/2017/02/08/golf-olympics-neil-cleverly/
Atb