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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leaving Well Enough Alone
« Reply #125 on: May 09, 2020, 06:13:51 PM »
Really Jeff? You're going to come here and say they lost the event because of course design after only two years? Lost it because of design? That's about as low a thing as I've ever seen written here. You might want to visit with the Tour to learn why the event was moved.  Hint...it's that old real estate saying....



Don,

Many factors contributed to the club’s demise as a Tour site, including unpredictable weather, a lack of shade, infrastructure and off-course hospitality venues, and a dearth of A-list players. All of that hurt the sponsoring Salesmanship Club of Dallas’ ability to raise funds for its charity, the Momentous Institute, which provides education and therapy services for local children and is the sole beneficiary of the event’s net proceeds.

Agree it wasn't solely the lack of shade, but that gets mentioned prominently in most articles.  Pros not liking it was another, although even I would argue that is their problem as much as the design.  But, it also goes to show, that while new and different designs are required to push the craft forward, in fact, not all really different designs are equally successful at doing so. 


I haven't really studied it in detail, but I am guessing that a new design style, aimed at making the most of it's unique design goals is more likely to work and change things than one where a previously successful design style is slapped on a new course just because.  Again, form follows function.  And, again, probably the most radical design style change I can recall is the first course moved off the links land to inland in Scotland, which was forced to change design style due to vastly different conditions.


BTW, it wouldn't take me long to find many posts here that have been a lot lower, including a few of my own.


Peter,



Have to agree with Mark on this one.  Just as hotels, restaurants and fast food chains have spent a crap ton to upgrade image, with Hampton Inns now as nice as their more expensive Garden Inn siblings, McDonalds now resembling Starbucks, etc.  So has golf, starting I think with lower level courses that feel like they need a better image to compete.  Now, I also believe the industry has pushed that somewhat self serving narrative a bit too much as well, sort of a renovation version of the 1990's new course mantra of "If you build it, they will come."  Statistically, renovations do help, but as noted, IMHO there has to be a limit of spending and even design intent.  But, that may be another thread.


Tom, my post did mention the soil cap issues, although not specifically noting tree planting.  And, maybe it is more accurate to say that the sum total of site selection and location was as big an issue as any individual design component, as Don alludes.  Add in all the site factors in the article I quoted, including the fact it had to be a treeless course, and most folks around here think the whole concept was probably doomed to an early death.


And, in a way, that whole idea  probably got started with a bunch of civic leaders and what not, certainly not with Bill and Ben, just as many other not as well conceived projects have been started with committees, developers, etc. who simply misjudge key factors, no matter how sincerely they are try.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leaving Well Enough Alone
« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2020, 10:47:50 AM »
The current, dues paying membership at any club owes no duty to anyone besides itself.  Whatever it feels is necessary to deliver an enjoyable experience should be the standard against which it is judged.  If the next generation of members feels differently, they too can do what is necessary to deliver an enjoyable experience. 
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Leaving Well Enough Alone
« Reply #127 on: May 11, 2020, 10:59:07 AM »
The current, dues paying membership at any club owes no duty to anyone besides itself.  Whatever it feels is necessary to deliver an enjoyable experience should be the standard against which it is judged.  If the next generation of members feels differently, they too can do what is necessary to deliver an enjoyable experience.


I agree with that.  But what if they are borrowing against those future members to do what they want?

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leaving Well Enough Alone
« Reply #128 on: May 11, 2020, 11:03:16 AM »
The current, dues paying membership at any club owes no duty to anyone besides itself.  Whatever it feels is necessary to deliver an enjoyable experience should be the standard against which it is judged.  If the next generation of members feels differently, they too can do what is necessary to deliver an enjoyable experience.


I agree with that.  But what if they are borrowing against those future members to do what they want?


The future members will do the same if they don't like it.  And who knows, they might like it.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Leaving Well Enough Alone
« Reply #129 on: May 11, 2020, 11:34:11 AM »
Neat exchange.
Yes, I suppose that's it in a nutshell: what's more important/takes precedence, the members or the golf course?
And put that way, most everyone would agree that people are more important than things: furniture, boats, art work, golf courses.
And yet.
Sentimentally, I wonder: when we try to satisfy a personal fancy/want by changing the very things we love, do we set ourselves up to 'inherit the wind'?


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leaving Well Enough Alone
« Reply #130 on: May 14, 2020, 10:33:53 AM »

Just back from another master plan site visit.


Agronomists and I take soil samples at every green.  For a 30 year old course they are in phenomenally good shape.  Agronomist says they could easily do well for another 10 years.  And, in reality, if they have not degraded much in thirty, if they keep the maintenance program going, maybe another 30 or forever.  I mean, the sand doesn't change characteristics over time, its other things.


They did want to fit a driving range in and gain length.  ( a fairly typical scenario)  We had done some prelim plans to accommodate.  Had the greens needed to be rebuilt, we might have proposed more wholesale changes.  When we found they didn't, we started focusing on the plan that changed the fewest holes and kept the most greens, even at the expense of reduced practice quality or slightly better holes.  (it was one of my designs, and I tend to rank holes, there are usually a few I would take a mulligan on)


So, the conditions of the course affected the proposed redesigns, as it should.  Shows you (I) shouldn't go in with any preconceived ideas until you analyze.


The other takeaway of interest is how much maintenance practices affects infrastructure longevity.  They did aerify aggressively for 20 years and had no thatch.  They fertilized pretty lean because of low budgets.  They have very good water quality  And, the design had great air flow around the greens.  (the two greens sort of tucked down in a hole clearly had more poa annua) 


I have seen instances of higher level maintenance actually decreasing life span.  A decade ago here in DFW, all the high end clubs that sprayed roundup all winter to suppress weeds, had dead turf in spring, because the Bermuda had actually not gone all the way dormant that winter.  The lower level courses that couldn't afford over seed and weed eradication came through in flying colors.  Of course, it usually works the other way, with high end clubs having the means to do what is necessary, providing the members allow it to happen, i.e., don't require reduced aerification to avoid inconveniencing play.  Low play also helps, of course. 

Anyway, I believe that if topsoil greens survive 100 years, it is because the succession of superintendents did what was necessary to manage them correctly for longevity. It's not enough to say, "See, they do it, so it can be done."  You really have to dig into what has gone on maintenance wise for the life of the course, at least since the last rebuild.  As you can tell, we were quite surprised, even astonished, to see 30 year old greens in such good, almost like new, physical shape.  Kudos to the superintendents over the years.  They probably saved the course millions in reconstruction costs, and no one probably even knew it or gave them credit for it.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leaving Well Enough Alone
« Reply #131 on: May 14, 2020, 11:18:51 PM »
Jeff,


Perhaps, prior to posting, you should have heeded the advice given in the title of this thread.  Your lack of information about Trinity Forest is understandable given it is clearly limited to being from an article or two in a newspaper; your willingness to opine on matters of which you have no information, however, is not understandable given your profession and association membership.


In any event, I’ll get you started on what would have been the easiest to figure out before spouting off, the name comes from the fact that it sits in The Great Trinity Forest. 


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Trinity_Forest



I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leaving Well Enough Alone
« Reply #132 on: May 15, 2020, 02:30:41 PM »

JC,


I don't know you, but wonder if you are aware I am a DFW area resident? I considered putting a bid in to design the project (but didn't knowing that tour courses usually go to Tour player type firms, and my chances were small.) I visited the site during construction, and, while the article was an easy thing to post to give an idea of my thoughts, I have had many discussions around town about this.  Lastly, despite my great interest in gca, I was personally one of the thousands who didn't show up in the 2 years the tournament was there after reading reports about lack of shade, so my views are very much a result of personal experience.


Not sure what your link is trying to demonstrate?  That the course does have trees? It was built on a landfill that had to remain treeless to avoid piercing the soil membrane and prevent release of gases which is typical on many landfills.  I am quite familiar with the various ecological regions in the DFW and Texas areas BTW.


The mission of this website is clearly stated as frank discussion of architecture.  Tom Doak mentioned a while ago that golf course critiques are probably too focused on the architect's name or brand, and not the product.  Of course, he was probably talking mostly about the fawning over the last generation of top architects, but now that he, CC, Gil Hanse, etc., are top dogs, the same may apply to them!  Short version, the few negative responses seem to me to be more concerned with me actually mentioning something even slightly negative about a favored architect here, not a reaction to the fact that a treeless course isn't always a good idea, even if it is trendy.


In fact, that was my main point - it is better to have form follow function rather than try to push something trendy on all sites.  That is exactly why Golden Age courses got "disfigured" in the eyes of many.  Too many people presumed the then new "modern style" worked better everywhere.


A side point was, I believe the current generation of architecture nerds needlessly blast the WWII generation and their decisions.  In general, sight unseen, I would tend to believe that generation was better than mine in nearly every way.  Not perfect, of course. 
For me, it follows that if, in previous golf booms, many courses were built in cornfields, it made perfect sense to plant trees.  It was very practical to the then situations, and yes, it may have been trendy, with the Parks movements of the 1920s, Arbor Day and tree planting in the post WWII era, where studies showed the human comfort and environmental benefits of shade (further studies, in light of anticipated future water shortages show some side effects, too, like more water use by trees).  But, with what they knew they, they weren't all wrong, and IMHO, those tree planting efforts are disliked more due to bad design, i.e., straight lines, poor tree choices, etc., rather than the overall idea of tree planting.


Lastly, there are many ways to judge the "success" of a project.  There are many records and films that critics loved and audiences stayed away from.  Were those a success?    My guess is that those who put up the money thought no.  And, ditto with TFGC. 
My guess (and you are correct, I really don't know) is that they people who set out to build a mostly purpose built course to host the Byron Nelson would say no, if it served its purpose for only two years.  There has to be a bit of egg on all their faces, no?  At least, from reaction around town, and of course, its all local politics where someone will jump on any perceived failures of some other guys.


While some may love the architecture, design is more than frilly edged bunkers and dramatic green contours.  And, I understand that you might not consider site selection, building on dump sites, etc. truly architecture.  I, more than most, know that CC chose to take what was given, and most likely felt little responsibility for the financial success.  That might even be in their contract (I know it is in mine!)


Lastly, once a gca builds more than 10 courses, some of them cannot be in their personal top 10.  Some projects just fit the bill more than others, its not all black and white, but it is hard to discuss shades of grey on social media sometimes.  (or so it seems,)



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leaving Well Enough Alone
« Reply #133 on: May 15, 2020, 02:52:04 PM »
Jeff,

I'm curious what you were originally trying to advocate in your post on the prior page.

1)  The course should never have been built at all?
2)  It should have been built, but not marketed/pursued as a PGA Tour venue?
3)  They should have built it with a tree scheme of some sort, even thou you knew it was not possible?
4)  Or perhaps they should have provided a large number of shade tents for spectators at the event?

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leaving Well Enough Alone
« Reply #134 on: May 15, 2020, 03:00:08 PM »

Jeff,


The point of the article was to answer your question as to why it would be called Trinity Forest Golf Club when there aren't any trees.  Frankly, I've seen more disinformation come from DFW residents about TFGC than I have accurate information (I even posted about this very thing a while back when another member of this board who resides in DFW was claiming things contrary to the truth), so your place of residence isn't persuasive and considering the accuracy of some of your statements, even less so.


Further, to assume that my post was as a result of most favored architect status is a comical crutch.  I merely took issue with you seemingly reveling in what you think to be the demise of TFGC, especially considering the information upon which you were basing your opinions.  I made no comment on my opinions of the course or any others.  Although I found it interesting to read your post in the context of Trinity Forest as it hasn't been given nearly the bump as other, lesser, C&C courses.


Nevertheless, I couldn't agree more with Tom or you that golf course critiques are very much focused on the architect's name or brand and not the product.  It was interesting to see Tom say that given that he is very much a beneficiary of it.  It is further reflected in the golf publication rankings with C&C and CBM/Raynor courses being laughably over represented. 


I'll isolate this quote from your post because I whole heartedly agree.



A side point was, I believe the current generation of architecture nerds needlessly blast the WWII generation and their decisions.  In general, sight unseen, I would tend to believe that generation was better than mine in nearly every way.  Not perfect, of course. 



I said on this very thread that the trend will change again in our lifetimes and the post-war, "Modern" era will come back into style soon enough.  It will then be overrepresented as well and again and again the world will turn.  What will be fun will be the window of time when there is room for all kinds of courses to be considered great.  Greatness has room for fuzzy bunkers, trees, parkland and links.  The Tom Paul "Big Tent Theory", so to speak.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leaving Well Enough Alone
« Reply #135 on: May 15, 2020, 05:26:02 PM »

JC,


The way things are with nostalgia in this country (world?) I have no doubt that the 50-60's style will make a comeback.  If I was a young architect, I might try to stake myself out as an expert for when the restorations begin.


I don't think TF will face it's demise, other than as a tournament host, which is well documented. 


I knew exactly why it was named that.


I suppose I wonder if the course should have been built at all, at least in that location.  Golf tournaments place several demands on a course.  Certainly, there was no infrastructure to really host a tournament as well as the old venue.  The neighborhood wasn't great.  People probably don't like walking on an old dump, even if perception doesn't meet reality.  I really don't know, but it always seemed like politics drove the entire project, sort of a copy of East Lake (but with differing conditions) so the city could say they were using golf to help that section of the city.  It doesn't seem to have worked out as well as hoped.  (Many other local articles believe the course isn't living up to its promise of allowing public play, as well, saying the technically allow it, but it is difficult to do.  I haven't tried. 


I am not reveling in anything gone wrong, although I understand that as a gca, there could be those perceptions out there.  My real point, as a gca, is that my idea of pre design analysis rarely considers anything other than "does the land supports a course that will fulfill it's function?"  It seems some of the politicians just expected that a landfill course would be accepted by the golf tournament public (and players, who didn't really like it, although again, perhaps for location as much as design)


Again, it is a nice course from what I can tell.  As a project, I still don't think it can be called an unqualified success.






Either way,
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Leaving Well Enough Alone
« Reply #136 on: May 16, 2020, 10:31:45 AM »

I am not reveling in anything gone wrong, although I understand that as a gca, there could be those perceptions out there.  My real point, as a gca, is that my idea of pre design analysis rarely considers anything other than "does the land supports a course that will fulfill it's function?"  It seems some of the politicians just expected that a landfill course would be accepted by the golf tournament public (and players, who didn't really like it, although again, perhaps for location as much as design)



To your first sentence:  yeah, I can relate.  ;)


To the rest:  do you really think that project was conceived and the site chosen because of the TOUR event?  I think it was more about proximity to downtown, for the members whose offices are there.  My recollection is, at the beginning, a TOUR event was not on their radar:  their initial goal was to host a major championship every so often.