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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2021, 06:58:29 PM »
I can get around Old Mac with one ball. I vote for it.

As you may surmise from that, my biggest problem with Pac Dunes is searching for balls, and losing some (5 in the gorse first time round).
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2021, 07:33:12 PM »
I’ve played:


The Loop Black
The Loop Red
Grand Saint Emmilonios
Tara Iti
Streamsong Blue
Old MacDonald
Common Ground
Bay of Dreams NLE
Rock Creek
Renaissance Club
Ballyneal
Tumble Creek
Barnbougle Dunes
St. Andrews Beach
Cape Kidnappers
Pacific Dunes
Stone Eagle


Would like to see Stone Eagle discussed. It hasn’t had much serious discussion here since the the infamous “inferno” round.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2021, 07:45:59 PM »
Tom,
In my past roles running different companies we used to do 360 peer reviews and I was always adamant that for reviews of my own performance, my peers had to provide constructive criticism.  If I was doing something poorly or flat out wrong I wanted to know about it otherwise I would likely continue doing that if no one told me.  People found it hard to say bad things about their boss but this was how we built trust with each other and as a team all improved.  But we didn't do it very often in a large group setting (or in a public setting like this).  Maybe this exercise will yield the results you are seeking, I hope it does.  One thought would be to ask for private comments on the course chosen and then share the results without naming names for general discussion but it is your thread.


Hi Mark:


That's maybe a good point.  However since Golf Club Atlas doesn't work that way for discussion of any other course, I think everything should be on the record.  I turned 60 today, I'm a big boy.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2021, 07:55:12 PM »
Results so far:


Streamsong 8
Old Macdonald 5
Pacific Dunes 3
others 2 or 1


Let's go with Streamsong Blue.  Old Macdonald was a co-design with a lot of consultants, so there were some politics involved, and I'd rather not go there.  Thank God you didn't all demand Sebonack!

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2021, 08:20:23 PM »
I will vote for The Rawls because it is most unlike all your other work in the sense that it was fully created from nothing.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2021, 08:23:05 PM »
I will vote for The Rawls because it is most unlike all your other work in the sense that it was fully created from nothing.


Maybe we will do that one later.  I would not have much to add, because I have not seen the course in 17 years!  I was going to stop through there this past fall, but weather in the mountains intervened and I had to take an alternate route from Denver to Oklahoma.

Ryan Farrow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2021, 11:30:12 PM »
The Loop.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2021, 12:22:34 AM »
I was gonna suggest Black Forest...but it appears it's closed. What a wild place. Googled it today and was sad to see that it was sold at auction a couple years ago. Still the hardest walk I've ever had on a golf course...plus I suspect only a handful on here probably had the chance to see it!


I vote for Old Mac, even though I've probably played Dismal Red the most of the main ones and feel like I remember it the detail the best.


JASON,


BLACK FOREST'S FRONT 9 WAS DEFINITELY A HARD WALK, BUT THE BACK WAS A FAVORITE WALK IN THE PARK SETTING..., KEY WAS JUMPING ONTO THE VALLEY COURSE TO PLAY IN... :o


I'D VOTE FOR DISMAL RED BUT ALL I DISLIKED WERE THE RIVER GNATS,  SO I'LL THROW IN FOR THE LOOP


Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2021, 08:26:11 AM »
I will vote for The Rawls because it is most unlike all your other work in the sense that it was fully created from nothing.


Maybe we will do that one later.  I would not have much to add, because I have not seen the course in 17 years!  I was going to stop through there this past fall, but weather in the mountains intervened and I had to take an alternate route from Denver to Oklahoma.


The Rawls would be interesting because on the surface it appears to be a blank slate with everything created and planned vs found, and it'd be interesting to learn why you did what you did. But I don't know if that's true or not, or if you had constraints not known to others outside the design/client team.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2021, 08:53:57 AM »

The Rawls would be interesting because on the surface it appears to be a blank slate with everything created and planned vs found, and it'd be interesting to learn why you did what you did. But I don't know if that's true or not, or if you had constraints not known to others outside the design/client team.


There were two real constraints at The Rawls.  One was that the donor's name was going on it, so he wanted it to be pretty, which meant a ton of work blocking out the apartments to the east, and a ton of landscaping.


The other was that there was some sheet flow going across the northern half of the property, and if we weren't very careful, we would be digging a giant bathtub that would fill to the brim in the first big rainstorm, with no drain to let the water out  :o .  So I spent a ton of time with the civil engineers to sort that out, which changed the original design concept considerably.  [Among other things, I was schooled on why you see the "100 year flood" way more often than once every 100 years.]


Really, though, The Rawls Course is the last course I'd like to listen to everyone else talk about, for the same reason I don't like that kind of job in general:  because we could have done ANYTHING, so what do you measure it against?  On a good piece of ground, you are looking for the best solution to that piece of ground, but with a blank slate, there are just tons of people who all have their own idea, and what use is talking about that?

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2021, 09:03:07 AM »
 :o


60 years old wow.   




You will be as old as me soon !




I’d like to talk Atlantic City CC.    Lots of food there .

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2021, 09:39:15 AM »

The Rawls would be interesting because on the surface it appears to be a blank slate with everything created and planned vs found, and it'd be interesting to learn why you did what you did. But I don't know if that's true or not, or if you had constraints not known to others outside the design/client team.


There were two real constraints at The Rawls.  One was that the donor's name was going on it, so he wanted it to be pretty, which meant a ton of work blocking out the apartments to the east, and a ton of landscaping.


The other was that there was some sheet flow going across the northern half of the property, and if we weren't very careful, we would be digging a giant bathtub that would fill to the brim in the first big rainstorm, with no drain to let the water out  :o .  So I spent a ton of time with the civil engineers to sort that out, which changed the original design concept considerably.  [Among other things, I was schooled on why you see the "100 year flood" way more often than once every 100 years.]


Really, though, The Rawls Course is the last course I'd like to listen to everyone else talk about, for the same reason I don't like that kind of job in general:  because we could have done ANYTHING, so what do you measure it against?  On a good piece of ground, you are looking for the best solution to that piece of ground, but with a blank slate, there are just tons of people who all have their own idea, and what use is talking about that?


Couldn’t it be discussed relative to what Mr. Dye did what flat, blank spaces or relative to Trinity Forest? Some of Ross work in Chicago area?


Ira

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2021, 10:17:10 AM »
I would love to discuss Rock Creek Cattle. Or Stonewall North.

Happy belated Birthday!
Mr Hurricane

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2021, 11:43:56 AM »
Agree with JF. Stonewall North would be excellent.

Peter Ferlicca

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2021, 11:58:23 AM »
I would love to discuss more about Stone Eagle.  Having lived in Palm Desert for 6 years and now in Phoenix for 7 years, Stone Eagle still is IMO the best desert experience.  I understand it isn't setup for walking, but when it comes to a full golf experience I can't imagine why some people have beef with it.  Courses like Quarry and Estancia are loved by the raters, but Stone Eagle is a superior golf course.  No homes, fantastic par 4's, memorable par 3's, strategic par 5's, unreal views, greens are a fun and provide interest for the short game.  What is not to like?

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2021, 12:06:05 PM »

Am late to this one...had grandsons visiting for 4 days 😀😀

I have played 23...


Loop-Black
Loop-Red
Streamsong-Blue
Old Mac
Pac Dunes
Rock Creek
Apache Stronghold
Black Forest
Ballyneal
Stone Eagle
Dismal-Red
Atlantic City
Stonewall-Old
Stonewall-North
Sebonak
Pasatiempo
Memorial Park
Grand St Emilion
Tara Iti
Renaissance
Barnbougle Dunes
St Andrews Beach
Cape Kidnappers


Most Creative--The Loop...by a mile
Best Overall Golf Course--Tara Iti (don't take this wrong way but how much architect and how much original setting)
Did Most w setting/land--Ballyneal
Most Fun--Old Mac...may have really started the trend towards fun


want to hear about the most...Stonewall North...simple because I think it is so much better the Old





Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2021, 12:26:47 PM »

I have played 23...

Pasatiempo
Memorial Park

want to hear about the most...Stonewall North...simple because I think it is so much better the Old


Paul:


You have already been to Memorial Park?  I haven't played it yet myself!  (Also, I am 60, but Pasatiempo is older than that so it can't be mine.)

I did not start this exercise to promote conversation of my own courses; I did so to say my own were fair game for criticism.  But we have to include others as well.  I'm happy to put Stonewall North in the queue, but perhaps people should start nominating courses by other architects, now.  Also, note:  they do not have to be modern courses which will provoke hurt feelings!

P.S.  The setting for Tara Iti is spectacular, but denuding it of trees and burying all the stumps and re-establishing native vegetation was a tremendous amount of work, far exceeding what we had to do to build Barnbougle or Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal or even Streamsong Blue.  So, it wasn't all the setting.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 12:40:12 PM by Tom_Doak »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2021, 01:32:47 PM »
Tom,


To perhaps bring more our UK&I friends into the fun:


Waterville (two plays)
Castle Stuart (one play)
Ballybunion Old (one play)


For transparency, I think the first is better than the common view here; the second is worse; and I am always torn by the last.


Ira

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2021, 03:48:32 PM »



You have already been to Memorial Park?  I haven't played it yet myself!  (Also, I am 60, but Pasatiempo is older than that so it can't be mine.)

I did not start this exercise to promote conversation of my own courses; I did so to say my own were fair game for criticism.  But we have to include others as well.  I'm happy to put Stonewall North in the queue, but perhaps people should start nominating courses by other architects, now.  Also, note:  they do not have to be modern courses which will provoke hurt feelings!

P.S.  The setting for Tara Iti is spectacular, but denuding it of trees and burying all the stumps and re-establishing native vegetation was a tremendous amount of work, far exceeding what we had to do to build Barnbougle or Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal or even Streamsong Blue.  So, it wasn't all the setting.  ;)


Tom--

1.  played Memorial Park in November 2019!!

2.  Wikipedia gives you credit for a restoration at Pasatiempo (see your list of courses on it) so who was I to argue.  I have known it cannot be trusted for political facts, but thought it would be honest with regard to golf architecture

3.  in your opening for this thread, your "examples" were all your courses...which lead me and perhaps others to think along those lines

4.  I thought Stonewall North was great fun...and Old too much of a slog.  Hence my choice for hearing what you thought.

5.  Totally understand what had to be done at Tara Iti...and also know conversion of a great setting into a great course is not easy.  I think the "variety" of things that make for a great course are vert intertwined.  Conditioning often has little to do with the architect (in theory), but I think we are evaluating the product (ie, the course), not the architect.  And even with this issue, the architect may have installed features that are too hard to maintain (slopes that are too sharp to mow appropriately etc).  And site selection is perhaps the most critical factor...and I would guess in many cases architects have an influence here...if only having the strength to say "no" to a bad site...not easy when you are worried about providing salaries for your team.  As a side note along those lines, I have a sense that JWN was always asked to build the "world's hardest course" and did not want to...but his inability to say "no" may have been his biggest shortcoming.

So non-Doak courses...how about (1) Carnoustie (it being so very different in many ways from the great courses of GB&I), (2) the three best courses in N Ireland (RCD), R Portrush, and Portstewart all "running out of great dunesland land for last 2-3 holes, (3) Old Elm (IL) in general and in particular its double green 8/17 (it is as great as they come or too complicated/too much)?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2021, 03:59:45 PM »
Paul:


Carnoustie would be a great exercise for this format.


I wish someone would correct my Wikipedia page.  [I think they frown on the subject doing it, and there are some significant errors.  For example, I have been introduced a couple of times as having four courses in the top 100 in the world, and I sheepishly have to say, um, I think it's more than that  ;) ]


To your point in #5, a year before Tara Iti, Ric Kayne sent us maps of a site further north.  I could see from the topo that it was too severe, but I asked Brian Schneider to go down there with Ric and make sure I hadn't forgotten how to read a map.  Brian went down and walked around, told Ric we could build "5 or 6 of the greatest holes in the world, and a bunch of bad ones," and they came back the next day.  Luckily, we were still option 1 on the phone tree when he found the next piece of land!

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2021, 05:39:48 AM »
I think for maximum participation in a serious criticism thread a couple aspects would lead to lively healthy discussion.
  • A public course which most likely would have the most people on here a chance to have played it.
  • A polarizing course to get both sides discussing their positives and negatives
I would offer up Cog Hill in Lemont, Illinois as an example. Public and hosted the Western Open for around 20 years in the middle of that went through what some would say was a Rees Jones vandalism exercise of the course. I don't necessarily fall into either camp, but know that some do clearly love or hate.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Next Up?
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2021, 09:04:26 PM »
Rustic Canyon is a favorite on this site and my favorite public in LA County. How about some serious critique on this one? 8)
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.