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Andy Johnson

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Boca National
« on: January 05, 2018, 11:46:04 AM »
Hadn't seen anything posted here about this project. It's pretty wild, the city of Boca Raton sold off their old municipal "Boca Municipal" for $65 million and are reinvesting $42 million to purchase Ocean Breeze (22 mill) and then pouring $18 million into the golf course redesign ($14 mill), clubhouse and learning center.


After researching this I feel like the project has gone back to the way golf course development was approached in 1988.


Here's a link to the writeup I did for it: http://www.friedegg.co/golf-courses/boca-national


Here's a link to a local writeup on it: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/boca-raton/fl-reg-oceanbreeze-update-01042018-story.html

B.Ross

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2018, 12:05:39 PM »
Andy, big fan of your podcast / website and the work you've done w/ the NLU boys as well.


I've played a lot of golf in boca throughout my life. my recco for the developer is to take a trip west on glades road out to the 27 hole palm beach county facility called osprey point, a 2010 roy case design. i think osprey checks nearly all the boxes you write about. it's a fun, reasonably affordable and from the right tees, challenging 27 hole facility  situated in a setting where you barely feel like you're in florida.


with this in mind, i would venture to guess that the boca muni crew wants 27 holes b/c of the success of PBC facilities such as osprey or a touch further north, okaheelee. obviously, they need to make money. the boca municipal had both a full length 18 hole muni or either a 9 or 18 hole executive course of mostly par 3s. many of my 1st rounds of golf came on that exec course 20-25 years ago.


nevertheless, the 2 PBC facilities vastly differ from the upcoming Boca Nat'l because they don't have to deal w/ housing. the housing at boca nat'l, aka ocean breeze aka boca teeca, will make it hard to do it right. as such, perhaps they're better off with 18 awesome holes and a practice facility good & special enough that they could charge above market rates to use.

jeffwarne

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2018, 03:09:09 PM »
Given that the name makes me want to puke,....
I guess it's all upside from there.


The name (and bidders)seems an ominous start on answering the proverbial question of
"How do you make a small fortune"
start with a large one...
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2018, 08:29:37 PM »

After researching this I feel like the project has gone back to the way golf course development was approached in 1988.



Andy,


I enjoyed the article and I enjoy The Fried Egg. In 1988, the world was shifting to a "Private for the Day/Season/Vacation" model of golf, to complement the Private vs Muni golf courses that I grew up with (Cobbs Creek vs Merion).


Architecturally, it may not have been a great long-term era for architecture, but I really do believe that it was very good for golf. And yes, I was a "member" of Stone Harbor Golf Club :)





Thus, can you share more information on what you mean by the comment about the 1988 era?
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2018, 08:37:59 PM »
I remember playing Ocean Breeze/Boca Teeca in 2009(?) Nothing memorable. Fairly typical Mahanna design.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2018, 08:44:20 PM »
I remember playing Ocean Breeze/Boca Teeca in 2009(?) Nothing memorable. Fairly typical Mahanna design.


That sounds like a Seinfeld episode that never made Network TV!! Is it in the archives :)
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

ChipRoyce

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2018, 09:30:55 AM »
For my personal tastes, yes, I completely agree with Andy that this project could be done in a better / different way that could provide a special course to the area.

That said, South Florida golf is a unique animal and many different, competing factors for its success (in a local context).

I suspect there are going to be a lot of failed golf developments in and around the South Florida area and its smart for the city to get involved and keep the courses going for both public play as well as to preserve property values to adjacent properties. I'd guess this won't be the first time that either PB County or City of Boca will step into a situation like this.

For example, when I lived in Boca Raton in the Mid 90's (when I was helping iGOLF get going), my apartment was adjacent to a semi-private course called Mizner Trail / Boca Del Mar (not to be confused with Camino Del Mar next door). In the early 2000's the course went under (little or no architectural merit) and has gone native and become a major eyesore. I just googled the course and saw that there's a major redevelopment battle going on for the land http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-mizner-golf-ruling-20150219-story.html

Back to the actual plan for redevelopment:

$14MM to build the course - certainly not minimalist, however, this is South Florida and I can only imagine the extra engineering and water management expense to address drainage and other issues (especially if/when the South Florida water board and Army Corp get involved with wetland management).

Architects that are bidding: I'm not a fan of many of the usual suspects that are bidding on the project. However, being a public entity, they have to put it out to bid, and of course the Norman, Jones and other big outfits are going to participate. I'd be interested to hear if they were smart enough to reach out to the rising / boutique architects to get involved as well and do they want to get involved in the bureaucracy that this project entails? (side note, nice to see that Richard Mandrell of Pinehurst and frequent CGA contributor put in a bid).

18 holes vs. 27: Sure, do more with with the land is preferred. We (GCA cognoscenti) all would like wide playing corridors and many strategic options. The average Boca Muni customer probably wants nice greens, low greens fees in season and faster play.

$2MM for clubhouse and learning center: That's more than reasonable spend and, like the Delray Muni, you may find that locals will congregate at the muni lounge for drinks and meals, beyond their golf.

Hotel Parcel: This is VERY valuable real estate, suspect that the hotel is both to fund the project AND to placate those who wish for the land to go to further development (vs. affordable golf).

I looked at the aerial view of the land.
https://www.google.com/maps/search/ocean+breeze+golf+boca+raton/@26.4025994,-80.0841173,1703m/data=!3m1!1e3

Its surprisingly open for a South Florida course (few narrow corridors lined with homes on both sides).  Clearly, the architect will have to figure out how to best use the constrained land on the right side of the property. The west side of the properly adjacent to I-95 may provide the ability to get very creative with the available land and few drainage ponds.

Mike_Young

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2018, 10:56:53 AM »
As mentioned before NGF is BS.  And they suggested the name?  nice...

I would never waste a stamp bidding such a project.  My bet is this dude in charge has already got all of this set and ready to go with all players...  he's not gonna mess with anyone that can't scratch him...

http://thecoastalstar.com/profiles/blogs/boca-raton-district-s-330-000-man?xg_source=msg_mes_network
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jay Mickle

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2018, 11:32:17 AM »
Surely not an effort to grow the game. A true municipal boondoggle.
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Brian Ross

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2018, 03:39:47 PM »
All 15 firms will have the opportunity to present to the Parks Council over three days in the next few weeks. Names were drawn at random for each presentation slot. The presentations will be on January 29, February 1, and February 12. All presentations will be open to the public, but public comment will not be allowed until later in the process. Each presenter will be given 20 minutes to present, then there will be a 10-minute Q&A period.
Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in.

http://www.rossgolfarchitects.com

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2018, 05:17:29 PM »
Nick Price/Tom Fazio II were selected:


A four-time PGA tour winner, Price’s Jupiter-based firm has worked on several international golf courses.


Fazio, the nephew of renowned golf course designer Tom Fazio, designed an 18-hole course at PGA National Resort in Palm Beach Gardens.
Price and Fazio have partnered on the golf course designs in the past, including on MacArthur Golf Club in Hobe Sound.


https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/local/new-pro-golfer-nick-price-tom-fazio-design-boca-new-public-course/TspDuZTWqefaO31Brik4SI/
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

David_Tepper

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2018, 05:37:22 PM »
"A four-time PGA tour winner, Price’s Jupiter-based firm has worked on several international golf courses."

For the record, Nick Price won 18 times on the PGA Tour, 5 times on the European Tour, 3 majors and 4 times on the PGA Senior Tour. :)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 05:40:50 PM by David_Tepper »

ChipRoyce

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2018, 06:25:48 PM »
A few interesting nuggets from their website:

The finalists (not the list that others predicted)
- Jan Bel Jan
- Staples
- Vincent Design
- Mandell
- Price / Fazio

Link to all the proposals! (very cool to see...)
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1NJ3_W7HTea90r4bvIWWmw7yScsxvGEgY

Reading through the proposals, all but Price/Fazio and Bel Jan made really smart and interesting proposals to put in some combination of short / executive course at the expense of the 3rd 9 across the road.  Without making derogatory statments about the different proposals, I will highlight the strengths I saw in Mandell, Vincent and Staples' proposals that seemed really well thought out and would produce a golf facility I would readily visit on my next trip down to South Florida.

The Price/Fazio's proposal's most "attractive" element (deliberate use of air quotes there) was that it would bring David Ledbetter to the project for the learning academy.




« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 06:49:55 PM by ChipRoyce »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2018, 09:14:56 PM »
Is that Jan Bel Jan from Les Miserables?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2018, 05:58:35 AM »

A few interesting nuggets from their website:

The finalists (not the list that others predicted)
- Jan Bel Jan
- Staples
- Vincent Design
- Mandell
- Price / Fazio

Link to all the proposals! (very cool to see...)
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1NJ3_W7HTea90r4bvIWWmw7yScsxvGEgY

Reading through the proposals, all but Price/Fazio and Bel Jan made really smart and interesting proposals to put in some combination of short / executive course at the expense of the 3rd 9 across the road.  Without making derogatory statments about the different proposals, I will highlight the strengths I saw in Mandell, Vincent and Staples' proposals that seemed really well thought out and would produce a golf facility I would readily visit on my next trip down to South Florida.

The Price/Fazio's proposal's most "attractive" element (deliberate use of air quotes there) was that it would bring David Ledbetter to the project for the learning academy.


Nick Price/Tommy Fazio got the job.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jeff Schley

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2018, 06:16:06 AM »
The Price/Fazio's proposal's most "attractive" element (deliberate use of air quotes there) was that it would bring David Ledbetter to the project for the learning academy.

Really?  Well that probably prices many people out of the game improvement.  Good to have a name (doubt he will be there much if at all), but that comes with a premium for the users.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

SB

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2018, 08:35:53 AM »
Is that Jan Bel Jan from Les Miserables?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2018, 08:44:58 AM »

The Price/Fazio's proposal's most "attractive" element (deliberate use of air quotes there) was that it would bring David Ledbetter to the project for the learning academy.

Really?  Well that probably prices many people out of the game improvement.  Good to have a name (doubt he will be there much if at all), but that comes with a premium for the users.


Its TOMMY Fazio.  He lives here in Jupiter. He has been responsible for the work at St Andrews, Tequesta CC, Quail Valley. He is Jim Fazio's son. Its a home game for him. Spoke with him last week.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mike_Young

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2018, 06:54:30 AM »
I'm amazed at the quantity of people who spend the money and time to make these presentations.  Usually these things are Request For Professional Services and low bid has nothing to do with it.  And secondly, if one doesn't know they have it in the bag before it begins then there is usually another who knows they do.  If you dig around and find out who the movers and shakers are in an area you can find who the winner will be before these things even begin.  I have no problem with that BUT I do think it is wrong to have so many spend time and money on presentations when the committee is just going thru the motions.  I'm sure there are exceptions.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2019, 11:52:51 AM »
Project to be rebid!


Update: October 22, 2019 The Boca Raton City Council discussed establishing a framework to amend the existing Golf Course Interlocal Agreement with the Greater Boca Raton Beach and Park District. In order to start the process, staff drafted a terms sheet outlining the City's interest in managing the design, construction and development of the proposed Boca National Golf Course with suggested next steps. The letter was sent to the Greater Boca Raton Beach and Parks District staff to review and consider prior to the District's November 4th meeting and in advance of the November 12 joint meeting. 

https://myboca.us/1517/Boca-National-Golf-Course-formerly-Ocean






Not yet online.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 06:59:45 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2019, 06:53:21 PM »
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 06:57:56 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

John Emerson

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Re: Boca National
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2019, 09:17:15 AM »
It’s been a long time since I’ve seen a mismanaged project of this proportion for golf.  Seems like the fazio group saw a money grab opportunity and ran with it while hoping nobody would notice.  This makes me cringe listening to some of the quotes by proponents FOR the fazio build.  🤢
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

archie_struthers

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Re: Boca National New
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2019, 09:50:40 AM »
 ::) ::)


   Almost twenty five years ago I was an "expert" witness (yep a true fact ) and the other sides "expert" was a high ranking ex NGF official with a pretty good vitae.  Ivy league education MBA et al, lucky he probably never worked at a golf course or more importantly took the time to learn the neighborhood demagraphics.   


Did Merion grow to 150 acres all of a sudden ::) , if you read the pro forma done in the article it alludes to that as a fact. Imagine spending 20 million dollars with such a bad handle on the reality of building. Mike Young summed it up well.


How about 18 good holes with a practice or nine hole executive as suggested already, that's the ticket. Looks like they at least won't be losing money as the real estate deal sounded good. Was this for the golf course that was out by airport? the  $65m



« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 08:34:54 PM by archie_struthers »

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