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ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2019, 12:33:12 PM »
Soggy 2018 for the Eastern U.S.
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2019, 12:37:25 PM »
AG

I seem to recall S Pines averaging something like 36 inches of rain/snow per year.  I was taken aback at how much rain there is which increased my appreciation for the drainage of some of those courses.  I don't think where I live (Midlands, England) averages higher than 30 inches of precipitation and inland courses get wet with much prolonged rain.  I think sun can have a drastic effect in helping to clear water and that is where the Midlands fall well behind the Sandhills.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2019, 03:45:10 PM »
AG

I seem to recall S Pines averaging something like 36 inches of rain/snow per year.  I was taken aback at how much rain there is which increased my appreciation for the drainage of some of those courses.  I don't think where I live (Midlands, England) averages higher than 30 inches of precipitation and inland courses get wet with much prolonged rain.  I think sun can have a drastic effect in helping to clear water and that is where the Midlands fall well behind the Sandhills.

Ciao
It's been dreadful since September, it really has.  My take might be that any course in the eastern half of NC that is NOT soggy is a drainage miracle. 
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Lyndell Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2019, 08:08:59 PM »
A.G. I agree with your earlier point about  more undulation of the property contributing to the drainage issues. #2 is built on what i think is the better soils site and #4 on the more elevation change site. These areas of the sandbelt can have deep sandy soils or even gumbo clay in the low areas or thin layers of sand over clay. I think Dormie Club has similar drainage issues due to more varied topo and wetlands. I'm sure Gil included more drainage in these low areas but there are limitations to trying to handle all the recent rainfall. As I stated in an earlier post these sands are  marine sands deposited over the native clay soils, where ever the sand layer meets the less porous clay soil it moves laterally creating the drainage issues. So #4 may have the more desirable topo and less desirable soils. Gil stated in an ad that he thought the site on #4 was better, but that may only be in a dry season.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2019, 08:40:14 AM »
And to add to the fun and get 2019 off on the right (webbed) foot, the area got a half inch of rain last night, and another inch is expected tomorrow.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2019, 12:57:49 PM »
I played Pinehurst #4 over Thanksgiving (it is a great course) and was happy with the drainage. I was expecting it to be very wet because there had been quite a lot of rain, but the course wasn't overly wet at all -- it was actually drier than I'd expected.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2019, 02:10:58 PM »
A.G. I agree with your earlier point about  more undulation of the property contributing to the drainage issues. #2 is built on what i think is the better soils site and #4 on the more elevation change site. These areas of the sandbelt can have deep sandy soils or even gumbo clay in the low areas or thin layers of sand over clay. I think Dormie Club has similar drainage issues due to more varied topo and wetlands. I'm sure Gil included more drainage in these low areas but there are limitations to trying to handle all the recent rainfall. As I stated in an earlier post these sands are  marine sands deposited over the native clay soils, where ever the sand layer meets the less porous clay soil it moves laterally creating the drainage issues. So #4 may have the more desirable topo and less desirable soils. Gil stated in an ad that he thought the site on #4 was better, but that may only be in a dry season.



I doubt more undulation contributes to poor drainage.  Obviously, sandy soil is better than clay, but if the catch basins are properly located (in the low spots.....) and sized, drainage should be okay.  Most golfers and architects prefer small basins to be less intrusive, but in reality, under sized catch basins are usually the limiting factor in drain system capacity.


What most people don't realize is golf course architects and developers need to make a cost value judgement on what size storm and how much rain to allow to pond.  While actual buildings and roads are designed to handle a so called 100 year storm, golf courses have been designed by the seat of the pants by some, for 1/4" per hour (even by some good engineers) or some lower storm.  1.5" per hour is an oft recommended standard for non health, safety, welfare drainage applications like golf courses.  I have used at various times 0.5, 1, 1.5 and 2 inches per hour.
More and more, environmental types and regulations prefer golf courses use smaller standards, to purposely allow temporary ponding around catch basins in bigger storms (not possible in most sandy soils) to allow golf course chemicals to settle out, but which also creates longer periods of wet soils after the ponding eventually drains off.  It would be better to collect drainage quickly and create a few larger detention basins to detain water as required, well off the golf course, or at least fairways.  However, on some sites (although I doubt P4 is one of them) where detention is required, it turns out to be much easier to hold water back in numerous small basins, at the expense of turf.


The owner has to do the calculus of how many days of play are lost at various levels of drainage design.  Typically, draining much more than the standards listed above doesn't allow that many more days of play, and isn't considered, except perhaps by enlightened owners who simply want the course to be nearly perfect soon after the rain stops, even at extra cost.


I don't know how the drainage system was designed there, but I believe there are many courses around the country that stay wet longer than desired in extremely rainy seasons.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 02:13:04 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lyndell Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2019, 08:16:19 PM »
Jeff I understand what your saying and I agree its easy to undersize piping to save money, but I reinterate that in this area and I'm sure in similar areas to Pinehurst soils the gumbo clay causes a perched water table that a catch basin won't solve. I have seen a subsurface drain line put across fairway where the two layers meet to take care of drainage, and these lines flow continuously not just during a rain event.. Also very near this area on untouched land would be the demarcation of wetland, but Pinehurst was built when wetlands were routinely filled.  JMHO

Roman Schwarz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2019, 12:03:06 AM »
The extent of my landscape drainage experience involves digging a french drain in my yard, so take this with a whole shaker of salt, but....if there wasn't an inherent issue around the lake, wouldn't those holes have been renovated more extensively?  As is, they stick out as not fitting in with the rest of the course.  Those holes and the ones entering/leaving the vicinity really contain most of the undulation on the course.  Nothing else strikes me as something Ross "should" have used for #2.  What other land on the #4 property is "better" than #2's?


I've only been at the resort twice since #4 opened (once to play #4 in October and once to play #2 in December) but it's felt to me that there's a push to make #4 be considered on a tier with #2 (at least in terms of green fee, shop swag, and US Amateur inclusion).  Maybe that'll work with the postcard crowd, but it won't among the #2 aficionados.

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2019, 10:50:38 AM »
As is, they stick out as not fitting in with the rest of the course.  Those holes and the ones entering/leaving the vicinity really contain most of the undulation on the course.  Nothing else strikes me as something Ross "should" have used for #2.  What other land on the #4 property is "better" than #2's?

If you look at post #7, it's clear that Ross avoided all the wetlands that eventually became the lake. Looking left as you walk up the 11th hole on Nr 2 there is a great change in topography. Eventually Ross used it for Nr 4 as well as land that is now part of the housing on Nr 7. To my eye, Ross's Nr 4 site is much better than what he had for Nr 2. He had the sense not to mess with the wetlands - part of which he used for 2 holes on Nr 2 which were abandoned in the 1930s.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2019, 11:58:19 PM »
again, old thread on US Amateur course.

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