Torresdale-Frankford--A Relic?

[mike_malone]

 I played this course today for the first time,possibly the only private club in the  Philadelphia city limits.
     There were bunkers in back of some of the greens that were like gumdrops of grass that were shaved and sand was placed on top.The depth of these bunkers was inches.I felt like it was 1920.Many of the  other bunkers appeared to be untouched.
    Overalll the experience was fun.The greens protected the course as expected.I enjoyed the back nine of 3 par 5's ,3 par 4's ,and 3 par 3's.
      Of course my host was looking forward to my tree analysis.I suggested they get a master plan.I understand Prichard has been there.It is such a good piece of land.The members would love it after they open it up some.
    The par 3 #9 was my favorite.170 yards with the green coming from left to right out of the hill.There was a ridge in the back 1/4 of the green and the slope from left to right was gentle.

     I imagine some of you have history on this course.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mayday:The other private club within city limits is Bala.

[ChipOat]

T-F is Philadelphia's #1 hidden gem IMO.  Tom Paul and I should both be ashamed for not naming it in the prior threads on that very topic.

[mike_malone]

 Forgot about Bala.
    T-F has that aspect where length cannnot be added so it maybe passed by in the rankings.But for a 13 hdcper that is not too important.It had a few par 4's that were not reachable for most.
    The layout seemed not to be constrained by some formula that leads to sameness.

[Jason Mandel]

my judgement on T-F may have been hurt by a few things, but i came away dissapointed after playing it for the first and only time last year.

i played the course late in the golf season, the weather wasn't great and the course condition wasn't either.

growing up in philadelphia i had always heard that tf was on of the top 5-10 in the area, so i was expecting something special, it was also one of the only ross's in the area.

i just didnt love the course, could have been a bunch of factors, but it did not overwhelm me at all.  the greens were certainly very good, but the rest of the course just left me feel as i was missing something that everyone else had saw.

the course is very short, so that did play a small part in it, and they told me they were putting a new irrigation system in, but i would have to say that tf was one of the only courses i have really been dissapointed in playing after hearing all of the hype about it.

jason mandel

[Matt_Davenport]

Mayday,
The gumdrop mounds with sand aren't original clothing (they aren't present on a 1929 photo--present 18-hole configuration built in 1919-21).  The bunkers you are speaking of behind the first green are a little out of character.  I truly enjoy walking the grounds of this course it is pretty special.  Like TEPaul's GMGC, the clubhouse at T-F is situated on a corner of the property.  As you mentioned the Ninth is a par three and the Eighteenth is a short (by modern standard) par four.  Proximity of each golf holes centerline would be difficult to ignore if an architect were to be involved in a Master Plan to massage the grand ol' dame.  Widening of Grant Ave (in the 50's?) altered the 17th hole as it had previously been a short par four laying up the the stream (behind the ex. 17th green) and a pitch to a green on the opposite side toward Grant Ave.  The 1957 aerial in the clubhouse gives an indication of the old 17th although shadows obscure this green.  I'm afraid it couldn't be brought back.  I have always tried to figure out the old routing of the original nine-hole course.  The current routing is Ross in that greens and tees are established on high points allowing beautiful views from elevated teeing grounds.  My thoughts on the old routing was that it was oriented along the slopes in a north-south direction crossing into the area of the present practice range.
Overzealous tree planting and/or lack of tree removal over the years has resulted in some cramped & shaded out teeing grounds that also really impair any optional lines of plays on holes.  What were your thoughts...

[TEPaul]

We, I, have talked about Torresdale Frankford a lot on here but maybe not for a couple of years.

I've played there a ton over the years, always in tournaments because the club has always been generous with the course and GAP tournaments. I've played there in a Philly amateur and maybe something else like that and in their annual invitational for the top ams in this area, the Kerwin Cup, for a lot of years too and even won it one time after my inimitable better ball partner, Mike Nilon, took to shanking on the final nine!

Torresdale is terrific--it's a golf course and architecture of a particular era, for sure! The course is well known for the hair-raising tournament set-up greenspeeds on some truly complex old sloping greens.

The course is super tight--in property dimensions--a lot like LuLu--Ross's other very early PA course--so there's probably a limited amount the club could do with tree removal! From Ross's original course Torresdale lost a few Ross holes over on the back nine.

Torresdale spans the spectrum of variety in par 4s, as some of those old courses do, from the interesting and fairly complex little topographical but driveable #4 and the straight-away flat #15 to the long and brutal #7 and particularly #8 which is probably in the top five hardest par 4s in the region.

Torresdale is a terrific experience and one of only about six Ross courses in the Delaware Valley region.

[TEPaul]

I also just love that odd, quirky little first hole at Torresdale although in all my about 100 rounds there have never hit anything other than a 2 iron off that tee. I love that 2 iron tee shot there. #1 is a short sort of "get into the round" hole that's one of the best "get right out of the round" holes for a short "get into the round" hole I've ever seen. When they have those greenspeeds flying at Torresdale if you're not basically directly underneath the pin you can basically "forgetaboutit"! #3 green is unbelievably intense too although I think they finally had to recontour and soften that one!

[mike_malone]

 Matt
  Interesting that those gumdrops were not original.I appreciate your comments.I did feel that they had two lines of trees in many places.If they cut back to one and cleared out the straight line nature of the trees,they would maintain safety,but open up some of the lost strategy and enhance the beauty of the remaining trees.
    I would use the short dogleg left on the front as an example(right of green OB).There were trees planted along the left side past the creek.In the aerial i saw in the clubhouse they were not there.These are not a safety issue;they just dissuade any attempt to go left and shorten the hole.So, the only shot is to  stay right.No one would test those wonderful line of bunkers on the left.Take out the trees and the strategy returns.

   BTW,it was getting dark and i rushed to the tee on the 299 yard 14 or 15 and hit driver instead of 3 wood.Left with 70 yards---i put it in the hole.

TEPaul
   I had a chip to #1.The caddie was busy so i hit it 5-8 feet left.It rolled back to the front of the green.


    My host said they have had trouble with the #9 green.It reminds me of problems we have on 2 holes at Rolling Green.There was a hill in back that creates airflow issues and two large trees that restrict morning sun.If they cut them down things should improve.
   

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

On that short dogleg left hole on the front nine you described (#5) they should take out plenty of trees on the left but as it is now there's still plenty of strategy on that hole. I just hit a 2 iron there and always have down to the bottom of the hill and I just have a wedge or sand wedge up into that green but some of the players in the Kerwin Cup try a more aggressive route of driving the ball right into that approach neck within a few yards of the green or else just try to drive it right onto the green. The trees left don't really affect those latter two strategies unless you really pull the ball badly. But there's no percentage at all trying to go short and left of that green--that's not good!

[TEPaul]

Another hole that's really good out there is #14! It's long and not easy to hit and even if you do and you're in the wrong part of the green in relation to the pin, like anywhere above it you have problem. In the Phiily Am there, Sigel, in a pretty tied match aced that hole!

That's pretty damn good but nothing like that extraordinary two hole stretch of Sigel's at llanerch when he aced that short par 4 and made eagle on the next hole--a par 5!

Matter of fact, I just might say that the par 3s at Torresdale are some of the toughest around---as bad things can happen if you miss most any of them in the wrong places!

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

Do you have a copy of TF's history, written by Dr. James Martin (I believe)?

I have it at home, and it talks about the architectural lineage in some painstakingly researched detail.  

[mike_malone]

 Tom
    When i played #14 i thought the blue tee should have been in back of the other two tees.I am looking at the Ross design and see only two tees--one in back of the other.
    As for the fifth;it shows that strategy is distance dependent.I doubt Ross designed it for those who could drive that far.His design for the pro player then should work for the 10-15 hdcper today.

[tomgoutman]

Mike
The 14th at Torresdale does have a back tee, about 30 yards behind the member's tee (if memory serves, 210 vs 180 yards).

[mike_malone]

 That is the tee we played.I pointed out that it was to the left of the other two tees.It should be directly in back;there is room.
   Welcome to GCA.com;much to learn;much to ignore;your voice is welcome.

[mike_malone]

 I received a 1929 aerial of the course and a Ross sketch.

    IT IS A SHAME SO MANY COURSES PLANTED SO MANY TREES!!!
     There is little that needed to be changed on these classic courses IN THE AIR to react to changes in technology.I think most changes can be made on the ground---tee placement(where possible),bunkering,different grasses.,etc.
  Once they plant those trees it is VEERY hard to get rid of them.

[TEPaul]

#14 is about 210 from the back tee and #11 another really fine par 3 is also about 210 with a really good left to right diagonal on that creek fronting the green. You know if you push even a well struck tee shot there of the right distance it'll probably get wet.

[mike_malone]

 Tom
    I found myself hoping for a typical uphill 200+par three that Flynn loves to build.I appreciated that about him yesterday.If one of those atT-F had been uphll it would have enhanced the course.

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

Donald Ross didn't do windows and he didn't do uphill par 3s!! You take a Donald Ross course and you place all the tees where his greens were and all the greens where his tees were and what do you have?

You guessed it---A WILLIAM FLYNN GOLF COURSE!!