Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course

[SPDB]

That biographical sketch is certainly interetsting, i'd like to meet the thesis advisor that OK'd it.

Also, a quick search of the copyright registry indicates no registrant under the name Noah Demarest, or under the title Supermodern Golf.

Misrepresentation?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

The "Best Hole Discussion" in London's Golf Illustrated is apparently not what Macdonald took his NGLA template holes from. It looks like he chose them from a follow up questionaire (inspired by that Golf illustrated discusion) to the leading golfers in Great Britain, a number of whom are named. Apparently about twenty or thirty responded and that's what the holes Eden, Redan, Alps, Road Hole etc came from.

I'm not aware that Crump even remotely copied any holes at PVGC although one hole is mentioned as a loose adaptation of a hole from Myopia that Crump admired.

I've heard it mentioned before, probably by you, that Macdonald consulted on the design of Merion East. He may have but I'd prefer to wait to see that actually documented specifically somewhere other than some vague and indirect mention.

Both Hugh and Alan Wilson gave Macdonald a ton of credit for consulting Wilson and the Merion committee at NGLA for two solid days before the project began and just before Wilson went to Europe for about seven months to study architecture. Alan Wilson wrote an app. seven page report on the construction of Merion East and I don't recall any mention of Macdonald consulting.

In Hugh Wilson's voluminous corespondence with Piper and Oakley Macdonald is mentioned a few time by all but frankly only for the fact that he was quite unapproachable and for some of the problems NGLA went through agronomically. It appears that Macdonald might have put Wilson onto Piper & Oakley in the first place but the subject was primarily agronomy and Piper and Oakley seemed to believe that Macdonald make some pretty rudimentary mistakes on the early agronomy of NGLA and that wouldn't be surprising as the course definitely went through at least one early but complete agronomic failure. It seems Macd was trying to grow grass on straight sand with no growing medium mix!

If there are or were any template holes at Merion I'm not aware of that and possibly the closest thing there to European concept is the huge swale or incline in front of #17 green which it's said was a loose adaptation of the Valley of Sin. Wilson returned home from Europe to Philadephia with a load of his own drawings and sketches from Europe.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You may recall, that I asked you, not that long ago, if Travis had a falling out with C.B. MacDonald.  You responded that you didn't know.

The reason that I asked the question had to do with Travis's alleged criticism of NGLA/MacDonald.

Since Travis was "consulting" with MacDonald on NGLA,
it would seem extremely unlikely that he would be openly critical of NGLA/MacDonald during his period of collaboration.

The likelihood is, that the criticism occured after he had been dismissed from any involvement in the project.

If the chronology of the criticism follows the disolution of the
"partnership" one would have to wonder if the criticism was rooted in sour grapes, or genuine issues.

If it was genuine concern, did he or didn't he voice that concern during the partnership ?  If he did, perhaps that is what caused the rift.  If he didn't, then  one would have to question his motives.

The critical questions would seem to be:

When was he dismissed from the project ?

When was he openly critical of NGLA/MacDonald ?

IF, and it's a big IF, Travis was critical of NGLA,
how valid is Travis's judgement and criticism, when 92 years later the golf course is still revered as one of the greatest examples of architecture on the planet ?

My instincts tell me that perhaps ego and not architecture may have played an important part in this issue.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
With all due respect to Cornish and Whitten (I believe most of the text was written by Cornish) I disagree.  The British press was very complimentary of Travis after he won at Sandwich and was also very supportive when the R&A banned the Schenectady.

Some of the highlights of that championship, they stuck Travis with a horible caddie. I love Travis's description: "This young man, about 26 years old, was a natural-born idiot, and cross-eyed at that." After he beat James Robb, Robb said he could have his caddie, the caddie master wouldn't let him, nor would he give him any other caddie.

Some of the press accounts.

Daily Mail (London) June 3, 1904: "...(fifth and the semi-final rounds) was noteworthy for the magnificent exhibition of golf given by the american champion W.J.Travis, who won both his matches in brilliant style.."

Daily New (London) June 4, 1904: "...For the first time in the history of the competition, the Amateur...has been taken out of the United Kingdom....No man ever won more deservedly than did Travis, his golf from the outset of the tournament having been magnificent."

Daily Express (London) June 4, 1904: "Travis could write with his iron if you put a nib on it."

Daily Mail (London) June 4, 1904: For the first time in the history of the competion...It may, however, be conceded that no player ever deserved to win more than Mr.Travis did."

Golf Illustrate (UK) June 1904:"Each competitor who had to face the American champion during the week came out of the ordealwith a chastened respect for the steady game and great perinacity of the man, and above all with high admiration of his powers on the puting green. Mr.Travis's putting in in the final match was nothing short of marvelous."

There is more from The Times, The Telegraph, The Standard, The Scotsman, etc...but I won't bore you.

Travis was admirier of British golf and British golf courses, he said they had 20 good courses for every one in America. Prestwick was his favorite course.

There was certainly bad blood between some officials and Travis, but there was bad blood between some Americans and Travis -- he could be an SOB. Macdonald was one of his best friends.

An example of the bad blood at Sandwich, when Lord Northbourne presented the cup to Travis he said "Never since the days of Ceasar has the British nation been subjected to such humiliation, and we we feverently hope that history may not repeat itself."

As GCGC man I'm surprised you are not more well versed on the Old Man.

[T_MacWood]

TE
They are the same.

Crump copied the humps and hollows of Mid Surrey for the par-3 3rd. The greens at Mid surrey were nealry all identical surrounded by "the alpinization."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

It's interesting how you glibly dismiss statements borne of research that you disagree with.  You can respectfully disagree with Cornish and Whitten all you want, but that doesn't lend credance to your position.

Could you date each of your quotes ?
Time frames are important to the issue.
The British Press's praising of one's play may have soured when Travis became critical of British golf.

You need to look at the entire picture, not some selected frames.

Cornish and Whitten disagree with you, and I was just pointing that out to you, since you seemed to think that I was confused with respect to history, when I referenced their comments.

What exactly did Travis say, negatively, about NGLA/MacDonald, and what were the dates of his utterances ?

[T_MacWood]

Pat
For someone who is always demanding the facts....you sure don't have whole a lot of 'em or have access to much history. And you are very demanding....why not do some leg work on your own.

I added the dates. You take one line from a book (you've probably just read), and you are telling me to look at the entire picture? Whatever you say Pat.

By the way...I've read more then few snipits of the British golf press...I'm pretty confident I have a good feel for the genral attitudes from 1900 until about WWII.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I'm glad you went back and added the dates, it confirms the thoughts I put forth, that the articles were written within a very narrow time frame.

You need to look at the bigger picture, one extending far beyond his victory at Sandwhich in 1904.

You're the personification of the last words addressed to the Captain of the Russian attack submarine pursuing the Red October.

Bob Labbance, who was invited by the Travis Society to write his Biography, clearly documents his rift with the British and British Press.

Just read page 101 where Travis himself writes of the luke warmness of the people at Sandwhich, or the chapter entitled
"Stirring up the Hornets" which documents his ongoing feud with the British Press.

So now, in addition to Cornish and Whitten, Bob Labbance also states for the record, that there was a rift with the British Press, the problem I alluded to.

And, shortly after this, his putter is banned by the R & A.

Now, that is some coincidence isn't it.

Is that enough facts and leg work for you ?

Go back to reading more snipets, and while you're at it, write letters to Cornish, Whitten and Labbance and tell them that they don't know what they are talking about, but you do.

As far as your assertion that I just read "The Architects of Golf", you should also know that the same passage appears in Cornish & Whitten's book, "The Golf Course" which I read in
1981, only 22 years ago.  So, you're wrong again, which seems to be what happens every time we go toe to toe.

Get over it Tommy boy.

Jaka B may be a little different, but he sure pegged you right.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Any non-"natural-born idiot" could easily see the quotes were from the 1904 British Am which took place in June of that year...I really don't believe the exact dates added anything...simply a fishing exhibition on your part to try to trip me up...nice try. Would like me to include the many British articles of support in 1910 over the banning of the Schenectany? Or perhaps Bernard Darwin's excellent article after Travis's death in 1927?

I have the article the Labbance refrences...what exactly did Travis say that drew the ire of the British press? And what exactly was the British press's response? I won't even make you produce dates.

There was a feud between Travis and a very powerful Brit...it dated back to 1903 and a tour of the US. It reared its ugly head in 1904 after his victory. It reared its ugly head again in 1910 and the banning. You won't find it C&W's book, nor in Labbance's book. I'll give you three guesses?

The Architects of Golf and The Golf Course have the same text (more or less)...you aren't cross-eyed are you?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I knew you couldn't address the issues I raised.

Travis felt NGLA fell short because the template holes failed to match the qualities of the originals.

You did make this statement, didn't you ?

Could you cite where Travis made this pronoucement ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Travis was not critical because Macdonald didn't make exact copies....just the opposite. He was critical that he imitated the holes in the first place...he said it showed a lack of imagination/creativity. .....

 You did make this statement as well, didn't you ?

Your two statements seem to contradict yourself.

When was Travis critical, when he was working with
C.B. MacDonald at NGLA, or after he was dismissed ?

Do you have the dates ?

And, could you answer the questions I asked you about NGLA, or don't you know the answers, because you've never played the golf course.

Stick to evaluations and questions on courses that you've actually played, that way you won't have to rely on third party sources, can actually answer a question regarding those courses, and not contradict yourself.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
When was Travis dismissed? Was he dismissed or did he quit? Or did he simply step away for personal reasons?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

To answer my question, it doesn't require a determination of the reasons for his departure.

Stop ducking the issue, when did he make his pronouncements ?  And in what medium ?

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Lets stop beating around the bush....give me your theory and I'll tell what I think based on the facts I have.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I answered your questions, you've failed to answer mine.

You stated that Travis felt the holes at NGLA fell short and asked me what I felt.  I answered you
I felt that the holes at NGLA are spectacular, as does most of the golfing universe.

I also stated that I can only vouch for my opinion with respect to my evaluation of the holes at NGLA

I asked you to cite for me when Travis made his statements denegrating the holes at NGLA, and in what medium.
You've failed to do so.

I've answered all your questions, it is you who are beating around the bush, and failing to answer the questions regarding your claim on Travis's derogatory remarks, re NGLA.

The funny thing is, you asked my what I thought about the holes at NGLA, my opinion, versus Travis's alleged opinion, and, I answered you directly, but you have absolutely no personal ability to evaluate any answers on a hole by hole basis because you've never played NGLA.

One would then have to ask,
What was the purpose of your question in the first place, to genuinely inquire, or to fit JakaB's characterization of you

P.S.  Why would I care what you think ?
       

[T_MacWood]

So you want to play that game...I anwered your question, I demand you answer my question.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my question from a couple posts back...what exactly did Travis say that drew the ire of the British press? And what exactly was the British press's response? If you don't know...simply say I don't know.

I don't have time for these games...please cut to the chase...give me your theory and I'll let you know what I think based on the research I have conducted. At that time I'll give you all the dates, direct quotations and any other fact you might want.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

You just don't get it.

I don't care what you think !

I answered the question you asked relative to my opinion of the holes at NGLA in the context of Travis's alleged, derogatory opinion of the holes at NGLA.  And, I stated that I can only vouch for my opinion, and that Travis was entitled to his, but that you had to view both of our opinions, on a hole by hole basis, in a vacuum, because you've never played NGLA, hence you had no basis for evaluating either of our opinions.

You're like a woman who wants to start a fight on any given issue just to try to prove her point.  Get over it.

I don't care what you think !

P.S.  Perhaps you'll give some additional thought, the next time you try to divert a post for your own pissy reasons !

[TEPaul]

"Crump copied the humps and hollows of Mid Surrey for the par-3 3rd. The greens at Mid surrey were nealry all identical surrounded by "the alpinization."

Tom:

We went through this stuff about "alpinization" last year. I tried to tell you then that the concept and application of "alpinization" at Pine Valley, particularly on the 3rd hole did not last if in fact it was ever really done. There's nothing on #3 that remotely resembles "alpinization" and probalbly hasn't  for over 88 years. The same was true with Merion, particularly the 9th green-end and surrounds. They tried it there very briefly and removed it.

"Alpinization" was reputedly JH Taylor's idea in Mid Surrey that he thought would revolutionize the concept of progressive penalty in golf architecture and maybe to some degree it did that but the way it was done back then look UUUUGLY and the whole concept and particularly the application did not last at all--certainly not at PVGC or Merion!

As for Travis and PVGC, he advertized the fact that he was responsible for a fascinating design feature of the course, that being his "reversible" hole concept. Crump didn't want that either and clearly it never happened.

Pat:

As to why or when Macdonald "dismissed" Travis from consulting on NGLA I really don't know. All I've seen on that is these remarks from Macdonald, starting with the paragraph on page 178 of "Scotland's Gift Golf" beginning;

"As I stated in my agreement to associate with me two qualified golfers in America, making a committee of three to carry out this general scheme, I asked Jim Whigam and Walter Travis as associates. Eventually I dropped Travis, and......"

If one reads that paragraph carefully it seems as if C.B. may have dropped him fairly early and since he immediately starts talking about what all those "template" or "Copy" holes were  about perhaps that's exactly why he dropped Travis.