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DMoriarty

On the Rawls thread, while explaining why esteems golf course architecture which challenges the "power game," Matt Ward said the following:  

Quote
. . . Look, let's be clear -- when you describe Joe Sixpack golfer I do admit there are people who can't even consistently hit the ball. My answer to that -- so what?
The evolution of the game doesn't come from the bottom -- it comes from the top. The top is what influences those that follow THEIR lead.

Is Matt's description of the evolution of golf course architecture an accurate one?  

Does the current golfing style of the elite players shape the evolution of golf course architecture?  

It may well be accurate, but has this always been the case?
 
And even if changes are 'trickling down' are these changes positive?  My immediate response to Matt was to tell him that I could not think of a single positive change to golf course architecture which trickled down from the style of the top players.  I still cant.  

Can anyone think of any positive changes to golf course architecture that have "trickled down" from the style of golf played by the world's elite?  

[I posed this same question to Matt, and he promised to get back to me, but has yet to do so despite my repeated reminders.   I guess I just cant compete for his attention with his latest great golf excursion, as he no longer even recalls what we were discussing.  Matt, if you are out there, perhaps this thread will refresh your recollection and you will finally get back to me.]
« Last Edit: October 23, 2003, 05:10:29 PM by DMoriarty »

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Evolution of Golf Course Architecture; A Trickle Down Theory?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2003, 05:19:44 PM »
First, the challenge around the greens. To protect par, many course might resort to toughening chipping/putting areas. This often has mixed results: The Good:The Ocean Course. The Bad: English Turn. The Ugly: Any Robert Trent Jones renovation.
 However, one positive impact might be the short (risk-reward) par five. This is the most exciting and accepts the most variety of all modern holes.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Chris_Clouser

Re:Evolution of Golf Course Architecture; A Trickle Down Theory?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2003, 05:24:17 PM »
I think the answer to your first question is yes and no.  To many players who normally play courses by Nicklaus, Player, Fazio, etc. they are wanting courses that have the same qualities that the pros favor in their regular tour stops.  But that same player seems to be fascinated when they run across a Sand Hills or Pacific Dunes or even a Hidden Creek for a not so obvious example.  

And I think that yes, this has been the case for the most part, except for what is often referred to as the Golden Age. This one period seems to have removed itself from this idea for some reason, perhaps because none of the prominent architects were "professional" golfers, but were proficient with the sticks.  

I think most of the good changes in architecture have been mostly due to the changes in technology from CAD software to better machinery and science.  I don't know if the ideas are better.

The most obvious thing that has trickled down has been maintenance practices.  Nicklaus is a great example of this.  All of the courses that come out of his shop are maintained to the best they can be.  Do I agree with they way they are maintained all the time, no, but they are maintained the same way that the player mentioned above would expect them to be.  

But that is all my opinion.  

TEPaul

Re:Evolution of Golf Course Architecture; A Trickle Down Theory?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2003, 06:03:57 PM »
"Can anyone think of any positive changes to golf course architecture that have "trickled down" from the style of golf played by the world's elite?"

There's not much question in my mind that Pine Valley was a course and style created for the world's elite in the sense of golfing skill. Did the influence of PVGC's architecture "trickle down" to architecture elsewhere? I've said before I think PVGC probably was the single most significant influence on the later evolution of the so-called "American championship course" but the architecture of the rest of them did not exclude the less skilled player as much as PVGC always did.

The architecture of those others did not really mimic the style of PVGC either and that may have been a positve although I can't say I'm sure about that. PVGC was created to inspire higher quality play from the good players of this area of that time and it may have done that and possibly some of its influence did too. Was that course or influence designed for the less skilled player and therefore democratic? Definitely not and that may have been the real reason its influence never really "trickled down".

It's ironic though that the apparent mecca and prototype of all architecture--the Old Course---for all the veneration its been given for eons never really had its style of architecture "trickle down" either. Why exactly that was is still one of the great mysteries of the evolution of golf course architecture to me.


AWTillinghast

Re:Evolution of Golf Course Architecture; A Trickle Down Theory?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2003, 06:04:52 PM »
David

I recently read the following, which was written by a modern day architect, and thought it particularly on point to this thread.  If anybody knows who the author is, I would respectfully ask that you not disclose the name until I choose to so that we can discuss its substance without bias entering into the equation!   :)  In due time, I will disclose the author and give credit to the magazine in which it was published:

Perhaps I’ve contracted that dreaded affliction known as nostalgia, or maybe I’ve just become a relic of the past, a soon to be extinct dinosaur, lumbering along, out of step in this modern world of golf.  Whatever the reason, I find myself yearning more than ever to see golf courses that emphasize the fun and interesting aspects of golf architecture more than mere length and difficulty.

It’s not that I’m an advocate of overly easy, uninspiring courses.  I agree with the classic golf architect Robert Hunter who writes in The Links, “it is not the love of something easy which has drawn men like a magnet for hundreds of years to this royal and ancient pastime; on the contrary, it is the maddening difficulty of it.”  But the “maddening difficulty” must be balanced by opportunities for success; opportunities for as many classes of golfers as possible, not just the strongest.

I understand the concern that advances in technology are rapidly out distancing the ability of all but the longest  of golf courses to defend themselves; and the reasoning that courses must be made longer and longer for their defense.  Within the span of a few days this winter, I watched the PGA Tour event at which on the final day, I did not see a single contender hit more than a four iron to a par five green.  I read an article where by his own admission, Phil Mickelson averages 305 yards of carry with his driver; and shook my head in amazement at reports that the South Course at Torrey Pines had been lengthened to over 7,600 yards.  Yet another article detailed how Augusta National has extended its course by an additional 300 yards in an effort to combat today’s version of golf at the highest level.  Surely, these are exclamation points to the fact that distance now rules.

My concern is that when golf architecture tries to combat distance with distance, i.e. the creation of longer and longer golf courses, it falls prey to the very thing it seeks to control.  Golf courses of extreme length reward only players of extreme length.  The more priority that is given to any one aspect of the game and the more architecture caters to any one segment of players, the more one-dimensional the game becomes.  Nothing could be farther from “fun and interesting.”

Fun and interesting courses are those that tempt, but do not dictate; or as Donald Ross has said, they offer “different ways of playing them, and because they do not present one and only one way to everybody, the interest in the game increases with the diversity of its problems.”

They are courses like Pinehurst #2 that recognize the inherent value of power and encourage its use, but not to the point of giving indiscriminate length an insurmountable advantage.  To quote Geoff Shackelford, they have “’intelligent purpose’ that sometimes let short hitters outplay long hitters, and other times will let wise and powerful players be rewarded for putting their talent to shrewd use.”

Fun and interesting courses, and Prairie Dunes comes to mind, defend against length and advances in technology not so much by the one dimensional use of extreme yardage, but by the use of strategy, the prevailing winds and the artistic contouring of their features, especially their greens;  and by challenges that are presented with a diversity of ways to meet them—multiple choice equations.  Choices demand decisions and the making of decisions sooner or later leads to doubt.  Uncertainty in the mind of the player is a far better and more universally fair defense than distance alone.  The greater the technical skills of the player, the greater defense that doubt becomes.

Golf courses that present but one approach to any given shot offer the easiest of all challenges to the most technically skilled and powerful players.  The process becomes one of pure mechanical execution, a skill that today’s best players take for granted.

Or as Harry Colt, another of golf’s classic architects has warned, “Immediately we attempt to standardize sizes, shapes and distances we lose more than half the pleasure of the game…What we want to have is variety, gained by utilizing all the best natural features of the land…If variety can be strongly developed we also promote the best features of the game—different classes of strokes under varying condition.”

“Different classes of strokes under varying conditions” in an artistic setting—for me, that is much more fun and interesting than being obliged time and again to make an all or nothing attempt at hitting some highly defined, but far, far away target.

Perhaps more than anything, fun and interesting courses are those like Cypress Point and The National Golf Links of America that regardless of length, fascinate us, fire our imagination and keep our interest from the first shot to the last; and upon completion of our round, make us look forward to our next.

DMoriarty

Re:Evolution of Golf Course Architecture; A Trickle Down Theory?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2003, 08:03:08 AM »
Sorry.  I've neglected this thread like it was a red-headed stepchild . . ..

First, the challenge around the greens. To protect par, many course might resort to toughening chipping/putting areas. This often has mixed results: The Good:The Ocean Course. The Bad: English Turn. The Ugly: Any Robert Trent Jones renovation.
 However, one positive impact might be the short (risk-reward) par five. This is the most exciting and accepts the most variety of all modern holes.

JNCLyon,  what specifically do you mean by "toughening the chipping areas?"   I can think of a few different approaches one could take to "toughening the chipping areas:"   More rough or less rough?  More sand or less sand?  More grass or tighter lies?  

Regarding the short par 5, I am not sure I understand how the pro game has lead to better short par 5s.  A few of the great ones I can think of,  13 in particular, seem lesser holes for trying to keep up with the pro game . . .  Perhaps I am just not understanding what you are saying?



Interesting that players would sleep walk toward what they see on tour but still appreciate the courses you mentioned when the trip over them.  

Perhaps your observation about few of the golden age designers being professionals .   If I recall, MacKenzie writes about why it is that these professionals inevitably make poor designers.  

I think most of the good changes in architecture have been mostly due to the changes in technology from CAD software to better machinery and science.  I don't know if the ideas are better.

The most obvious thing that has trickled down has been maintenance practices.  Nicklaus is a great example of this.  All of the courses that come out of his shop are maintained to the best they can be.  Do I agree with they way they are maintained all the time, no, but they are maintained the same way that the player mentioned above would expect them to be.
 
Definitely the Tour conditions have trickled down somewhat.  I guess the question is whether this is positive or negative?   Probably some of both I'd guess.

TEPaul

I did think about Pine Valley but unfortunately havent seen it so it is difficult for me to know specifically.  Can you give some examples of specific features or holes a PV which were created with the top player in mind but which have trickled down to all of gca?  

I've also always wondered why Saint Andrew's influence isn't more pronounced.  (Perhaps it is, but its influences are less than obvious?)  

AWTillinghast,  Thanks for your input and the quote.  While we have you on the line, did you have anything to do with the design of the Rose Bowl courses?  Please give us a sign if you did . . .
« Last Edit: October 27, 2003, 08:03:34 AM by DMoriarty »

DMoriarty

Re:Evolution of Golf Course Architecture; A Trickle Down Theory?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2003, 08:06:14 AM »
Quote from the English Turn (mentioned above) website:

Quote
. . . gallery mounds and contours seldom found in this part of the country . . .
 

Hard for me to see this as particularly positive . . .

TEPaul

Re:Evolution of Golf Course Architecture; A Trickle Down Theory?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2003, 08:48:08 AM »
David:

The questions in your initial post are interesting ones. The answers are hard to pin down, I'd think.

Probably at least one and perhaps a couple of additional questions are necessary though;

1. Why are various types of golf courses built? What is it that they're trying to accomplish, in other words?

There's little doubt why golf courses such as PVGC, ANGC, Bethpage Black, Shinnecock, Oakmont, Aronimink and Pinehurst #2 were built. In my opinion, they were designed and built to test a higher level of player. To the extent they can or seem to accomodate a lesser level of player is probably the aspect of most interest.

I'd say PVGC is at the far end of the spectrum of not being able to accomodate players of lesser skill in a scoring sense and that's exactly what Crump intended. ANGC, #2, Shinnecock, Aronimink were probably designed to basically accomodate all levels but probably BB and Oakmont were more in the mode of architecture only for the skilled player like PVGC.

Did those kinds of designs have some "trickle down" effect or influence on other architecture in an evolutionary way? It really doesn't seem so for some reason although the irony is that players of lesser skill and ability have always seemed to have enjoyed playing those courses of extreme difficulty that apparently were no even designed with them primarily in mind.

It has alway fascinated PVGC from the beginning until today that bad golfers for some reason enjoy playing the course although they shoot a million on it.

Donald Ross reported that he was told when he perfected the championship calibre design of #2 into the challenge it is that no one would play it compared to #1 but to everyone's surprise everyone wanted to play #2 and not #1!

Ross also said something to the effect;

"It's easy to build a very hard course and it's easy to build an easy course but it's not easy to build a course that challenges the very good player while at the same time accomodating the player of lesser skill."

Other early designers and architectural philosophers said;

"There's no reason to design problems for high handicappers because their own games are problems and handicap enough!"

No matter how hard a course may be for the skilled player or the duffer alike there does seem to be a common thread throughout those courses that were designed for skilled players whether or not they were also designed somehow to attempt to accomodate duffers that have remained both famous and apparently respected and enjoyed by all.

That common thread seems to conform on those courses to one basic requirement that most all the thoughtful architects of the early or the later era insisted on conforming to and that was that no one would easily lose their ball.

And if you look at all those courses even the well known intensely difficult ones, even including PVGC, that fact of not being able to easily lose your ball is true--it always was and still is today.

This probably doesn't answer your question but just some observations of some interesting influences anyway.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Evolution of Golf Course Architecture; A Trickle Down Theory?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2003, 09:12:20 AM »
Tom:

When Pete Dye was planning the Stadium Course at PGA West, the developers (Joe Walser and Ernie Vossler at Landmark) told him they would prefer that the course not have any forward tees at all.  They said they were going to build five courses, so why couldn't one of them be just for the best players?  They also said they wanted it to be so hard that people in Japan who had never seen it would be complaining about how hard it was!  [They must have foreseen GOLF CLUB ATLAS!]

Anyway, Alice Dye talked them out of it, told them it had to have forward tees to be playable for everyone, because everyone would want to play it and it would take them eight hours to play from the back tees.  She was probably right ... but then again maybe they were right, too.  Average golfers love to test themselves against a really hard course even if they shoot 120 ... Pete Dye has become famous and made a good living on this principle.

On the flip side, I've made a good living by thinking about what would be fun for the majority of golfers, and not worrying as much about what the Tour pros would do.  I do think about them, and I want them to have some shots that make them think and give them a chance to show off their abilities ... I just don't care if they come away with a low score.

DMoriarty

Re:Evolution of Golf Course Architecture; A Trickle Down Theory?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2003, 04:14:18 PM »
Probably at least one and perhaps a couple of additional questions are necessary though;

1. Why are various types of golf courses built? What is it that they're trying to accomplish, in other words?

This is a key question if not the key question.   I'd really like to ask the developer/committee/architect this question about most contemporary courses.   I have a feeling that many wouldn't have much of an honest answer, outside of achieving some sort of gain themselves (money,  prestige, etc.)

As for the old courses you list . . . it sure seems that they were built to challenge the top golfer, but as you note, they were successful at still keeping the lesser golfer happy, if not a little arm-tired.  

As for your observation about not losing balls, I couldnt agree more.    As I have suggested before, golf might solve many of its problems if it could figure out a way to make the ball more precious.

Tom D.  It seems one concept from the pro game which has trickled down everywhere is this notion that hard is good,  and hard (and therefore good) is to be measured in terms of resistance to scoring.

Cant say that I can think of much positive that this notion has brought to golf course architecture.    

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Evolution of Golf Course Architecture; A Trickle Down Theory?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2003, 04:46:54 PM »
Specifically, I meant the tight lies around the greens and grass hollows. This brings more subtlety and options to the short game. Anyone can hack out of the long rough or hit a bunker shot, especially tour pros. However it takes many types of shots to hit out of a Valley of Sin. This was shown well at Pinehurst in the Open in comparison to Medinah later that year. All that a course like English Turn possesses is easy bunkering that even I could escape from. Kiawah's waste bunkers, especially #16, provide more of a challenge.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

DMoriarty

Re:Evolution of Golf Course Architecture; A Trickle Down Theory?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2003, 06:32:00 PM »
Specifically, I meant the tight lies around the greens and grass hollows. This brings more subtlety and options to the short game. Anyone can hack out of the long rough or hit a bunker shot, especially tour pros. However it takes many types of shots to hit out of a Valley of Sin. This was shown well at Pinehurst in the Open in comparison to Medinah later that year. All that a course like English Turn possesses is easy bunkering that even I could escape from. Kiawah's waste bunkers, especially #16, provide more of a challenge.

This is what I thought you might have meant.  The reason I asked for clarification is that, while I agree with  you that Valley of Sin type features would seem to present a great variety and level of challenge, I just dont how the these types of features trickle from the top.  

It seems architecture aimed at, and stemming from, the pro game is more likely to be of the high rough and easy bunkers variety than of the subtlety presented by tight lies.  

Also, if I had to classify, I'd definitely call Valley of Sin type features as trickle-up.   One of the beauties of the Valley of Sin type feature is that the hack might often be able to figure an avenue out of his predicament.  That this type of feature also challenges the top golfers is frosting on the cake, as far as I am concerned.