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John Emerson

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Re: Soil and course design
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2019, 05:21:33 PM »
My original point was sand required more water than silt or clay.  This is exactly why I didn’t get into organic matter, salts, particle size, etc.  So many factors at work can manipulate it.  But if taken pure sand, silt, and clay and analyzed water percolation rates, water moved through sand significantly faster than the other 2.  [size=78%]It’s too complex to try and explain due to the many different combinations of soils worldwide.  You cannot compare Augusta to anything other course especially in Scotland, much less something down the road.  The climates and soils are completely different.  The only way to directly compare is in a controlled study because soils can change just a mile down the road.  Those “hypotheticals” are right out of a study at Michigan state.  [/size]
[/size][size=78%]My original [/size][/size][size=78%]thoughts and sentiment is fact.  A simple google search will produce tons of information backing this up.  [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Last example...take3 plots 5000sqft each at any golf course.  Same grass, same heights, same inputs.  One sand, one silt, one clay.  Measure the water usage for a year in each and I’d bet the farm that the sand used significantly more water than the other 3.[/size]
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soil and course design
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2019, 11:54:00 PM »
I didn't realize the question was so complicated. It makes design and build incredibly complicated. I live in the Virginia mts and we have a lot of shale on the property, which creates its own problems. As mentioned we have a couple kinds of soil on the property. The soil around the creek is a little different from the soil on higher ground. Thanks for your replies, it makes me want to learn more.


Greg Chambers, we are allowed to ask questions. That is why GCA exists and I have not seen many soil threads.


Tommy Williamson, you are allowed to ask questions.  And sometimes the answers are far too complicated for posts on GCA.com. 
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soil and course design
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2019, 03:01:37 AM »
Most UK links golf courses do not have any fairway irrigation, so they get water only from when it rains.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soil and course design
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2019, 11:30:48 AM »

At La Costa we did two things - Reduce turf to save irrigation, and sand cap fairways to improve growth (existing soil had lots of salts in it, requiring adding new soil on top)  We did find that the irrigation requirement for sand cap went up, offsetting the turf reductions somewhat.  Makes sense that in a given climate, sand requires more water than silt or clay, so pointing out a UK course that doesn't have irrigation may give a false sense of what happens.


Soils and course design is a complicated question.  For instance, no one had mentioned how sand erodes so more easily than clay, and thus, you may need to add catch basins just to control long or steep drainage runs. Sometimes you do it just to get yourself through grow in.  We recently had a remodel where the soil was sandy and the irrigation of the outer roughs inadequate.  Turf dried out and died, bare spots started eroding, etc.  So, in the USA anyway, sandy soils can require both drainage and irrigation for proper management, with the correct amounts obviously varying with climate.


Years ago, working for Killian and Nugent, I built Lake Arrowhead next door to where Sand Valley is now.  We found water still ponded both pre and post construction either due to soil build up on the former wooded land or thatch build up in the turf.  Since then, I have never not added catch basins in low spots even on sand soils.  At LA, I didn't bother to connect them with pipes, but oil drum barrels with their bottoms and tops cut out, allowed the water to get through the first thatch layer and start draining in the hundreds of feet of native sand.


Of course, even forgetting the used oil drums, environmentalists (if aware and watching) wouldn't allow that today because golf course chemicals get down to the water table faster in sand.  (most/many incidences of contaminated water table are in sandy soil areas, or around wells where farmers and others fill their tanks carelessly) Thus, in most places, some would suggest that a collection system dumping drainage in settling ponds is more required in sand than clay.....Either way, for practical reasons or environmental ones, I basically treat drainage about the same in any soil.  Typically, catch basins and pipe end up being smaller in sandy soils, since you assume a higher percentage percolates through.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

MClutterbuck

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Re: Soil and course design
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2019, 01:26:31 PM »
Clearly the original question in the post has an immediate answer that will cause most of John's discussion about more water use moot. The sand base will probably lead to the use of a grass, if possible, that requires less water, once established. It will also probably be a grass more suitable to the ground game.

Drew Groeger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soil and course design
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2019, 10:32:43 AM »

Love this thread, can it be the one-stop-shop for all queries soil-related? If so, I have a question (if not, apologies to the OP):


On a hilly, sand-based site, what are the differences in the sand found at the tops of the hills vs. the valleys? I'm assuming, due to water runoff/movement, the sand at the peaks would be different somehow than the sand found in the valleys? And how does this impact building a hole in either location?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soil and course design
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2019, 04:26:58 PM »

Drew,


Its possible (I have seen it!) that the floodplain soils are alluvial (silt) and the surrounding cross slopes and uplands sometimes something completely different.  That was the case at our course in Parker, CO (now called Black Bear)


Always wise to at least check the USGS (not USGA) soils maps to get a basic idea.  You just never know.


Another interesting (unrelated to elevation changes) example was the Quarry at Giant's Ridge. One side of the road was a former sand mine, the other a former iron ore mine with completely different sub soils.  Sometimes, the base soils can change that quickly.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach