Engineers Country Club

[Adam_Messix]

Does anyone know the story of Engineers Country Club in Roslyn, New York?  It certainly appears as if it had quite a beginning, hosting an early PGA and US Amateur, but nothing of note since.  It's  on a nice site with some really wild greens.  Cornish & Whitten say that it was originally designed by Herbert Barker, but has been modified several times.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I found the history of the club at:

www.engineerscc.com

"Engineers Country Club was incorporated on January 21, 1917 by members of the Engineers Club in Manhattan. The group had been interested in forming their own golf club for quite some time and acted quickly when the Willet Manor estate (pictured left) came on the market.
 The 210 acre site was purchased in March of 1917 including several small ponds and featuring a boathouse and jetty on Hempstead Bay. The Club's original intent was to build two 18 hole golf courses but the plan was soon amended. In the end, 150 acres were dedicated to their 18 hole golf course, which was designed and built by Herbert Strong.
 Much of the design of the original course followed the layouts of some of the most challenging holes in Scotland. Some thought Engineers to be the finest course in the country. Others felt it was no more than a "bag of tricks" (as quoted from publications of that era).
  In 1919, the original Willet Manor house was destroyed by fire. Rather than rebuild, the extensive stable facility (pictured left) was converted at very little expense into a modern clubhouse. Dues then, were just $50.00 per year.
 August 1920: a sports columnist writes, "No young club in the history of golf, let it go back 400 years, has come in for as much discussion and comment as Engineers. The main nerve test will be on the greens. You will find strong men weeping as they finish a round", (not very different from today).
 In 1921, Engineers Golf Course was remodeled by Devereux Emmet. Emmet had also designed courses for Cherry Valley, Garden City, Glen Head, Salisbury, Seawane, Meadowbrook and others. Engineers was listed in Frank Menckeís Encyclopedia of Sports as one of the best courses in the U.S.A."

There are pictures of the holes at website.
 

[grandwazo]

I've played Engineers numerous times, the last time being in the Tournament of Champions event they hold every other year on the course and personally, I have never enjoyed playing the course.  My playing partners that day, also "club champions", did not enjoy their day either.  I think the powers that be who run this tournament keep going back that simply to humiliate the players.  As a 7, I shot 90 and hit 16 greens.  Lots of fun!

I'm certainly no expert, but my perception is that when the course was originally designed green speed was not an issue and the severity of the greens were dampened by the fact that the mowers in use at the time could not cut the grass as we do today.  The mistake the club makes is allowing or asking the superindendent to cut the greens as if they were flat.  The greens, starting on the first hole are simply unplayable using today's length of cut.
 
Engineers has not been able to come to grips with the fact the greens simply "don't work" today and bring in an architect who can take advantage of a decent piece of property and fix the problems.  The members brag about how hard the greens are, but they are simply not fair.  On some holes there is simply no place to hit the ball.  

The club has also suffered from severe financial problems for many years due to a declining/change in membership.  To raise money in the past they sold off land and it would seem from the routing lost some holes along the way and stuck some new ones in where they simply don't belogn.  What's sad is that it is now a place, based on it's cost, that is attracting golfers new to the game, who will quickly grow to hate the game having to play the course week in and week out.

The last I heard was that they had sold another piece of property, not affecting the golf course, for some serious $ and were going to use it to fix up their clubhouse, pool area, etc.  Between Old Westbury, Fresh Meadows and Glen Oaks, it's a very competitive club market.  It's a shame, because there is a lot of great history, but unlike North Shore Golf Club located less than a mile away on a similar piece of property, the club leaders have been unable to find a way to keep the golf course moving forward, sadly stuck in the past.

[Brad Klein]

Engineers has some of the boldest, largest putting surfaces on Long Island - or did, since they've shrunk down somewhat. It also has a great little par-3, the old 100-yard 14th (?), I think, that is sitll maintained but not kept in rotation of play becaue it's thought to be too short. This was the old "2 or 20" hole made famous in the 1920s or so during an exhibition match.

Engineers also has a few out-of-place holes on the front nine done (or redone) by Frank Duane in the 1960s. Plus it has way too many trees.

But it's an amazing layout, and it's too bad they didn't let Gil Hanse undertake a proposed restoration of the layout a decade ago when it was being debated internally.

 

[Tyler Kearns]

Grandwazo,

     Playing golf is hard enough, especially when it's hard to pull the putter back, I mean that type of fear should be reserved for drivers and long irons . Kidding aside, your absolutely right that many old courses cut their greens too short, much shorter than they were designed to be maintanied. I do not agree with the remedy that you propose--hiring an architect to "fix" the greens. This is a knee-jerk reaction that will prove very costly. I'm sure the greens have some great shapes and unique undulations, thus, it would be a shame to let an architect ruin these green complexes. A much cheaper method to alleviating the problems of ultra-quick greens is to raise the blades on the old triplex mower. I think everybody would enjoy the day more, and the bonus, no assessment tacked on to the monthly dues!

Tyler Kearns

[jeff kitchen]

Anyone played Sands Point near there? A very underrated place in my opinion. with some pretty cool holes. Great par 5 on the back in particular.

[George_Bahto]

Jeff - i built a new Tillie-type Redan at the Sands Pont (Men's Club) course replacing a par-3 that didn't fit the course at all (it was an add-on) - the course is Tillinghast . .... if this is the Sands Point you're talking about.

There is also, right down the street, the Village of Sands Point course where Tom D did a lot of work a little while back.

The private club has about 80 members or so - no one on this very nice course. A very nice membership to work with I might add.

Engineers' greens: the most dramatic and fun greens you may  ever find (Dev Emmet) - a couple have been softened - and I think more will happen .....   unfortunately. Trouble is they are unputtable at high grn speeds which is what the membership is after and their major complaint is they have trouble when visiting other courses if their speeds are kept lower ?? duh!  (I can't buy into that one) - these greens are a textbook in themselves. Very cool I'm sad the greens that have been altered were changed and I hope they don't change any more of them.

I putted on their old 8th green for about an hour one afternoon (severely tilted back to front with all sorts of happenings) - almost as fun as putting from the high collar to the pin at NGLA's Redan

[T_MacWood]

In the teens and twenties Engineers was mentioned in the same breath with Pine Valley, Lido and the other top courses in the country. It is extraordinary to think the course opened in 1918 and proceeded to host the 1919 PGA and the 1920 USAm.

I'm not certain why the course didn't host any other national championships. Certainly it produced two worthy champions--Jim Barnes and Chick Evans. One of the reasons may have been the severity of the design--Herbert Strong had a tendency to push the envelope and Engineers appears to be one of his boldest designs. Which is why it was a prefect venue for match play.

Another factor, the US Am and PGA tended to go to new locations (very few return visits), unlike the US Open which leaned more toward a rota. At 6300+ yards it might have been a little short for the Open, although the yardage was deceptive with only one hole over 500 yards (the only par-5) and the extremely short 14th. It was plenty tough, possibly too tough.

It is intersting that the club web site emphasizes the involvement of Dev Emmet. There are plenty of old articles on the course, and I have yet to find any mention of Emmet doing anything there. If he did anything, I suspect it was very minor. Perhaps they percieve Emmet as a bigger name than Strong, I would beg to differ.

[jeff kitchen]

Jeff - i built a new Tillie-type Redan at the Sands Pont (Men's Club) course replacing a par-3 that didn't fit the course at all (it was an add-on) - the course is Tillinghast . .... if this is the Sands Point you're talking about.

There is also, right down the street, the Village of Sands Point course where Tom D did a lot of work a little while back.

The private club has about 80 members or so - no one on this very nice course. A very nice membership to work with I might add.

Engineers' greens: the most dramatic and fun greens you may  ever find (Dev Emmet) - a couple have been softened - and I think more will happen .....   unfortunately. Trouble is they are unputtable at high grn speeds which is what the membership is after and their major complaint is they have trouble when visiting other courses if their speeds are kept lower ?? duh!  (I can't buy into that one) - these greens are a textbook in themselves. Very cool I'm sad the greens that have been altered were changed and I hope they don't change any more of them.

I putted on their old 8th green for about an hour one afternoon (severely tilted back to front with all sorts of happenings) - almost as fun as putting from the high collar to the pin at NGLA's Redan

I know the exact whole you are talking about! It must have been the best putt I have ever had on that. I distinctly recall saying to my partner -- "Redan, right?" If I han't got it right in, I think I would have ended up 50 feet off the green.

[George_Bahto]

Jeff: i guess I didn't make it hard enuf if you sunk the putt

it is either #2 or #11 - depends on how they are routing the course ...... I like it as a #11 .... too tough for the second hole, I think - hard to get to the left rear pin ....

glad you liked it (or did you?) - suppose you missed the putt

[Adam_Messix]

Guys--

Thanks for the responses.  Engineers has not received too much discussion on this site, even though it was once on Ran's "The Next Fifty."  

Brad is correct that the greens are still large and still wildly contoured.  Having only walked the course I cannot say this for sure, but it appears as if there are number of positions on the course where two putting is nearly impossible.  If you get a chance to look at their hole location sheet, there are large areas of several greens that are blackened showing that they are unpinable (sp?).  

It would be a shame if any of the greens were rebuilt because the members wanted faster greens.  If I were a member here, I think it would be a great home course advantage to have such difficult surfaces.