Best 3-4 designs by some of the less popular architects at GCA

[James Brown]

Curious to see some nominations for best designs from:


Ault and Clark?


Joe Lee?


Rees Jones?


Arthur Hills?

[Ira Fishman]

I have not played enough by any of them to rank courses in their respective portfolios, but I have thought that the Woods Course at Kingsmill by Clark, the Green Course at Williamsburg by Jones, and Belle Haven by Hills are all very solid.


I played Cog Hill #4 by Lee (and Wilson) a lot in the late 1970s-early 1980s and always loved it for the challenge, movement of the greens, and variety of holes, but it sounds as if the Jones (ironically) renovation was counter productive.


Ira

[Kyle Harris]

Wyncote Golf Club by Ault and Clark. I like their work at Mountain Valley in Mahanoy City, PA but it is long neglected these days.

Banyan by Joe Lee is solid. Not sure about the recent Kip Schulties work.

[Rob Marshall]

I think The Creek course in Fiddlers Creek Naples Florida is a solid Arthur Hills course. I would tweak a couple holes but I really like it.

[Ian Andrew]

Doug Carrick

Predator Ridge, Kamloops, BC
Cobble Beach, Owen Sound, Ontario
Humber Valley, Deer Lake, Newfoundland
Osprey Valley (South), Ontario

[Tom_Doak]

Rees's best work, that I've seen, is Nantucket GC.


Atlantic and The Bridge may be even better, but only after some remodeling.

[jeffwarne]

Rees's best work, that I've seen, is Nantucket GC.


Atlantic and The Bridge may be even better, but only after some remodeling.

"some" remodeling would be quite the understatement (at least in the case of one of the courses)


I enjoyed Haig Point-though it was in my pre GCA days

[Nick Ribeiro]

Tom beat me to The Bridge! I was waiting for the return of Matt Ward for that nomination! 


"Best" is obviously a relative term and comes with a different definition by all. I saw a study a few months ago regarding the hardest courses in the country by real numbers. Slope / Rating and a maybe 2-3 other criteria ranked the hardest courses in the country. What was interesting is, the list did not match up with the golf digest "Americas 20 Toughest"
~ https://www.golfdigest.com/gallery/photos-americas-20-toughest-courses


So reading this thread reminded me of 2 courses in particular on that list that do not show up on any list and would get a perfect score (or labeled the best) in golf digests "Resistance to Scoring" ranking criteria. One is a Rees Jones Design and the other is an Arthur Hills design.


I'll be interested to see if GCA comes full circle and if the "less popular" designs that have been reworked eventually get restored again back to the "less popular" design. Perhaps some of these guys will benefit from being less popular like Pete Dye was? Rees Jones for example use to be knocked for building hard golf courses but today equipment technology has caught up to those courses and they aren't nearly as hard as they once were 10/15/20 years ago. In fact most I would argue, like any other course today, these designers courses need to figure out a way to continue battling technology and adding challenge.


10 years ago would you have ever believed a Rees Jones or Pete Dye design could be labeled too easy? That day is coming for any course that doesn't modernize....


An interesting decade ahead....

[SL_Solow]

I always enjoyed Joe Lee's course at the Hamlet in Delray Beach.  It has undergone some minor revisions but it remains fairly true to its origins.  Originally built to host the LPGA, it is a little tight in spots as part of a housing development but it is walkable and contains a good variety of interesting holes.  Well worth playing.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I really liked Rees' work at Ocean Forest.

[Peter Pallotta]

I noticed that several posters used the word 'solid'. I would too. It suggests good bones, good 'structure'. 
I've played a half-dozen Doug Carrick designs, including one from Ian's list, and they're all solid - they all provide good golf.
In terms of 'style', I think of DC's work as "golden-age lite": gentle, well-rounded, with no sharp edges or jagged conundrums; more suggestive of the 'real thing' rather than the thing itself. But the structure is certainly there.
Which is to say: I wonder if that's what all the courses listed here have in common, ie a structure that is so sound that it overrides (the architects') stylistic tendencies and (our own) aesthetic preferences.
But that said, I also wonder if I've ever really given style its due. Maybe sometimes style can actually be, if not structure, then at least 'substance'.
Peter

A peaceful and blessed holiday season to you all

[John Emerson]

A. Hills’ Champions Trace in Lexington, Ky (now has a tour stop week of Open Championship) has a few really good holes but it’s not a world beater by any means.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I plead ignorance. I know nothing of Doug Carrick's work. I'll have to correct that, I guess.
Blessed Christmas to all of you.

[James Brown]

My nominations for favorite courses:


Arthur Hills:
River Islands, Tennessee - Imteresting routing and the name is literal.
Ouitavos Dunes, Portugal - kinda similar theme.  Great setting a few very interesting holes and lots of great views. 


Coming theme:  Eye candy sites that yield B+ golf. 


Ault and Clark: 


Toftress Resort, PA:  Super tough mountain course with amazing greens.  One of the toughest courses I’ve played.
Penn National Iron Forge Course:  Great wide open “fake links” course with lots of long views and a very nice balance and shot variety. 


Common theme:   Tough walks but walkable.  Reward good driving.


Joe Lee:


Greystone Golf Club, MD  Protoype modern tournament layout.  Long, tough.  Forced carries, all or nothing shots.  Not that fun but very fair.
Musket Ridge, MD: His last course.  Nice variety.  Fun and fair.  Nearly unwalkable. 


Common theme:  “The Championship Course”


Rees Jones:


Hell’s Pointe, VA:  Interesting wetlands setting with a few “signature holes.” 
Montauk Downs, NY:  Ok, he gets a co-credit with RTJ, but this is one of my all time favorite courses.


Common theme:  Hard to say because most of the other courses I have played of his are redesigns like Torrey Pines where the work was mostly about making it a modern Tour level track.

[Tim Martin]

My nominations for favorite courses:


Arthur Hills:
River Islands, Tennessee - Imteresting routing and the name is literal.
Ouitavos Dunes, Portugal - kinda similar theme.  Great setting a few very interesting holes and lots of great views. 


Coming theme:  Eye candy sites that yield B+ golf. 


Ault and Clark: 


Toftress Resort, PA:  Super tough mountain course with amazing greens.  One of the toughest courses I’ve played.
Penn National Iron Forge Course:  Great wide open “fake links” course with lots of long views and a very nice balance and shot variety. 


Common theme:   Tough walks but walkable.  Reward good driving.


Joe Lee:


Greystone Golf Club, MD  Protoype modern tournament layout.  Long, tough.  Forced carries, all or nothing shots.  Not that fun but very fair.
Musket Ridge, MD: His last course.  Nice variety.  Fun and fair.  Nearly unwalkable. 


Common theme:  “The Championship Course”


Rees Jones:


Hell’s Pointe, VA:  Interesting wetlands setting with a few “signature holes.” 
Montauk Downs, NY:  Ok, he gets a co-credit with RTJ, but this is one of my all time favorite courses.


Common theme:  Hard to say because most of the other courses I have played of his are redesigns like Torrey Pines where the work was mostly about making it a modern Tour level track.

James-I wonder if you could explain what you love about Montauk Downs? My impression was meh. Thanks.

[Kyle Harris]

I feel a bit of a yob for not thinking of it but yes, Toftrees is very much a good golf course. Calling it a mountain course is a bit of a stretch.

[James Brown]

I feel a bit of a yob for not thinking of it but yes, Toftrees is very much a good golf course. Calling it a mountain course is a bit of a stretch.

Fair point,  but a lot of the green sites and tee shots play like a mountain routing because they have so much slope.  For some reason, I have always thought of it as mountain-like for that reason. 

[James Brown]

My nominations for favorite courses:


Arthur Hills:
River Islands, Tennessee - Imteresting routing and the name is literal.
Ouitavos Dunes, Portugal - kinda similar theme.  Great setting a few very interesting holes and lots of great views. 


Coming theme:  Eye candy sites that yield B+ golf. 


Ault and Clark: 


Toftress Resort, PA:  Super tough mountain course with amazing greens.  One of the toughest courses I’ve played.
Penn National Iron Forge Course:  Great wide open “fake links” course with lots of long views and a very nice balance and shot variety. 


Common theme:   Tough walks but walkable.  Reward good driving.


Joe Lee:


Greystone Golf Club, MD  Protoype modern tournament layout.  Long, tough.  Forced carries, all or nothing shots.  Not that fun but very fair.
Musket Ridge, MD: His last course.  Nice variety.  Fun and fair.  Nearly unwalkable. 


Common theme:  “The Championship Course”


Rees Jones:


Hell’s Pointe, VA:  Interesting wetlands setting with a few “signature holes.” 
Montauk Downs, NY:  Ok, he gets a co-credit with RTJ, but this is one of my all time favorite courses.


Common theme:  Hard to say because most of the other courses I have played of his are redesigns like Torrey Pines where the work was mostly about making it a modern Tour level track.

James-I wonder if you could explain what you love about Montauk Downs? My impression was meh. Thanks.

I can see how many GCA’rs who get to play NGLA and Shinny and Maidstone regularly might see Montauk differently, but I see the course as an outstanding example of solid  public golf in a wonderful setting.  For my game, I found Montauk was really fun and presented me with lots of choices off the tee.  It has also been in great shape every time, which counts for a lot with me on an affordable public course, 

[Chad Anderson (Tennessee)]

Arthur Hills best - Olde Stone in Bowling Green, KY.  It is spectacular.  River Islands in East TN is another good layout.


Rees Jones - My favorite would be Haig Point in Hilton Head area (Dafuskie Island).  I liked it much better than Harbour Town and you see the lighthouse about 5 times versus just once while playing HT.  Rees Jones first course is in East TN, called Graysburg Hills - or at least that's what I've been told.

[Tim Gavrich]

Arthur Hills best - Olde Stone in Bowling Green, KY.  It is spectacular.  River Islands in East TN is another good layout.


Rees Jones - My favorite would be Haig Point in Hilton Head area (Dafuskie Island).  I liked it much better than Harbour Town and you see the lighthouse about 5 times versus just once while playing HT.  Rees Jones first course is in East TN, called Graysburg Hills - or at least that's what I've been told.

Chad--


FWIW, Graysburg appears to be an early Rees course, but not his first. That distinction goes to Arcadian Shores in Myrtle Beach, which I also think is one of the best Rees courses I've played. I have to say Danzante Bay is pretty spectacular as well.


Concur with the Toftrees selection for Ault/Clark. Earlier this year I played the Arthur Hills course at LPGA International in Daytona Beach and thought it was enjoyable as well. Wouldn't mind checking out a few more of his courses here in Florida; it seems for a time that he was pretty heavily influenced by Pete Dye.

[Tom_Doak]

Earlier this year I played the Arthur Hills course at LPGA International in Daytona Beach and thought it was enjoyable as well. Wouldn't mind checking out a few more of his courses here in Florida; it seems for a time that he was pretty heavily influenced by Pete Dye.

From 1980-1990, pretty much every golf architect was heavily influenced by the work of Pete Dye. 


That's one reason minimalism caught on; we were the only ones doing anything different, (until Mike Strantz came along).  Which is funny since Bill and I both learned from Mr Dye.  We just had too much respect for Pete to copy him.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Rees's best work, that I've seen, is Nantucket GC.


Atlantic and The Bridge may be even better, but only after some remodeling.

Are we talking about original designs or current? Because all 3 have been altered quite extensively since opening. I would saw the bunkering along looks NOTHING like Rees. A complete change, no hard lines, a lot of work done in house with some help from architects other than RJ.

[Tom_Doak]

Rees's best work, that I've seen, is Nantucket GC.


Atlantic and The Bridge may be even better, but only after some remodeling.

Are we talking about original designs or current? Because all 3 have been altered quite extensively since opening. I would saw the bunkering along looks NOTHING like Rees. A complete change, no hard lines, a lot of work done in house with some help from architects other than RJ.

Tony:


I am aware of the changes to Atlantic and The Bridge, but Nantucket was still Rees's work when I saw it 10+ years ago, and I was praising it on that basis.  I hadn't heard it had been changed, but I guess nearly everyone is trying for more of the "frilly edged look" Rees used to complain about.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Rees's best work, that I've seen, is Nantucket GC.


Atlantic and The Bridge may be even better, but only after some remodeling.

Are we talking about original designs or current? Because all 3 have been altered quite extensively since opening. I would saw the bunkering along looks NOTHING like Rees. A complete change, no hard lines, a lot of work done in house with some help from architects other than RJ.

Tony:


I am aware of the changes to Atlantic and The Bridge, but Nantucket was still Rees's work when I saw it 10+ years ago, and I was praising it on that basis.  I hadn't heard it had been changed, but I guess nearly everyone is trying for more of the "frilly edged look" Rees used to complain about.


Gotcha. Yes, sometime in the last 10 years Nantucket did a major bunker renovation and got rid of many while renovation the existing to be a more rough edged, native, fescue style.

[Mike Schott]

Living in Michigan there are a lot of Art Hills designs. A favorite is HawksHead in South Haven. He did a fine job using waste areas in pretty wide open course. It's been years since I've played it but it's under appreciated.