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Thomas Dai

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Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« on: October 23, 2018, 03:38:25 PM »
A few days ago I saw this photograph on the internet and thought that it looked pretty severe but pretty cool as well.




Today I saw this photo on a social media feed and wondered whether the section to the left of the green in the photo and the bank could be part of the putting surface?



Thoughts?
atb

Randy Thompson

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2018, 09:15:44 PM »
In the first photo, I have a problem with the pin position more then the green. I feel if itīs not possible to leave the perfect putt within the leather, something isnīt right. Even if the pin was placed where that could be done, expect a high percentage to hate it with passion! The second photo makes me want to leave the grass on the slope long and cut green down below, so that you could possibly leave it in the leather. Not sure if that has ever been done and if it has not, I may do it in the future if I get the chance. I wonīt do it on a renovation that is for sure. I already got a couple strikes pushing the limits but if you canīt handle making mistakes you will never be original! I just feel more and more greens are the last place we can challenge the better players without over penalizing the middle and high handicappers. Others feels such tactics results in drifting more towards putt-putt or tricking up the golf course!

Mark_Fine

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2018, 09:56:50 PM »
Wonder where that back bowl drains  ???
Contour for the sake of contour can sometimes get way over the top for me.  It is hard enough for most to get anywhere on the green let alone to four or five putt once the get there  :(   Once again, who are we designing for? 

Tom_Doak

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2018, 10:11:26 PM »
Randy:


In your latter example, I saw a green like that in Idaho ... it was a normal two-tiered green, but mowed in sort of a sideways U shape so that a putt from the higher tier wouldn't run off the front.  It worked, but you had to wonder why they didn't just make the green a little less steep.  [Also, putting from low to high through the fringe was not so much fun.]


In the first example, I don't agree with your standard of "inside the leather".  99% of the time, sure.  But always applying that standard would mean giving up on some very cool golf holes.  Take the 6th at Riviera with the bunker in the middle; I wouldn't like a hole like that if the bunker just completely stymied you so you couldn't get within 20 or 30 feet, but if you stick with "inside the leather" you'd have to give up on that concept entirely.


The green in the picture is from the par-3 course at Ballyneal, so right away, I believe the standards should be less strict than for a "serious" course.  But even if this was a regulation course, there are some mitigating factors.  I was more concerned with the putts from low to high than the opposite, because it's much more common to reach the front bowl by accident ... the front bowl is almost the lowest point around [although it does drain off to the apron at the left].  But I didn't worry so much about putting from high to low, because it's not that easy to get onto the high tier, and it would be a pretty stupid mistake to make with the pin in front.  Even then, in this instance, you might be able to get close to the hole by putting off the slope down into the green at the front ... just maybe not inside the leather.




To Mark's point, this is not "contour for the sake of contour".  The back tier of the green is natural, and the bowl in front has been filled up maybe three feet from where we started!  The only part of the hole that was really changed is the little apron to the right - originally that was even steeper than the rough at the back right of the green, and we figured we had to change it or many balls would be lost just to the right of the green.  It was a lot of work to cut the shoulder down, but all of that material went into the bowl in the front, so there was no wasted effort.


Or, I guess I could have just responded to both of you, I'm sorry that you do not have the stomach to build a green like this, but I'm glad I do   ;)

Mark_Fine

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2018, 10:50:12 PM »
Tom,
I take it that back bowl drains off the front right of the green?  Hard to tell with a photo but that is the only place I can see water going? 


I agree with you that a great green can present situations where even a perfect putt has no chance to “get within the leather”.  That said, a hand full of them on an 18 hole course is probably plenty for most golfers.  Yes there are exceptions, but like any design feature, too much of a good thing can become a bad thing pretty quickly. 

Tom_Doak

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2018, 11:49:24 PM »
Mark:


The upper tier of the green is a bowl.  It doesn't surface drain anywhere.


There are a couple of those on the main course and it has yet to present a maintenance issue, because the property is so sandy.  We rarely do that but where we have it has worked fine.

John Mayhugh

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2018, 12:44:27 PM »
Here's an example of a severe upper tier. Not sure if you would call this a "serious" course - it's from Flamborough Head in England - but it's certainly a "proper" 18 hole course. There is not a lot of room for pinning the upper tier, but the club's website indicated that they sometimes do.

I have no problem with something like this. It's effectively making the green smaller and putting a premium on distance control. Hitting the wrong tier is not much different from short-siding yourself, other that you can be on the green and have a really challenging putt. So what? Why would being on the green have to guarantee a chance of getting a perfect putt close? Maybe your second shot shouldn't have been a putt (i.e. you missed in the wrong place).

DSC00252 by john mayhugh, on Flickr

Peter Pallotta

Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2018, 12:51:53 PM »
In one of those Bobby Jones instructional films he did in the early 30s, there's a segment showing him making a long putt on a green that has the same kind of contours pictured here. It looked like great fun, putting that green. And when I look at these photos it strikes me that I'm not used to (and don't expect, and in fact am not sure sure I want) that kind of 'fun' on the putting surface -- and as I think and type that, I wonder "What the hell's wrong with you? Why wouldn't you want it?"
Hmmm.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2018, 02:54:00 PM »
For those not in the know, the hole in the second photograph posted above is the 8th at Cruden Bays Championship Course. Splendid hole as is, but would extending the putting surface to include the area below the bank enhance it?
Atb

Josh Bills

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2018, 03:19:27 PM »
Top photo green section reminds me of the 8th green at the Eden Course.  Saw Brian Finn make an unbelievable par from the bottom section putting up to the top.  At least I think it was Finn.  Fun hole. 

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2018, 04:05:13 PM »
For those not in the know, the hole in the second photograph posted above is the 8th at Cruden Bays Championship Course. Splendid hole as is, but would extending the putting surface to include the area below the bank enhance it?
Atb


Fan as I am of big slopes, that one is too big for me and given the flatness of both tiers, I’m not sure it would fit.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2018, 04:32:43 PM »
For those not in the know, the hole in the second photograph posted above is the 8th at Cruden Bays Championship Course. Splendid hole as is, but would extending the putting surface to include the area below the bank enhance it?
Atb
IMO. No, though if it was mowed it could be used as a run off, but never for placing a pin. Correct me if I am wrong but the height difference looks to be 2 metres, the acceleration down that slope cut at 4mm would require 20+ metres of green for a pin.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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David McIntosh

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2018, 07:51:18 PM »
The Ballyneal green in the first photo reminds me of the 5th green at Carnoustie. It’s not exactly the same as the ridge looks steeper at Ballyneal and it doesn’t fall away at the right hand like Carnoustie but there are a few similarities.

When I played Carnoustie last month the pin was in an almost identical position and I ran up my approach shot from the rough hoping the slope would bring the ball back towards the flag and below the hole. I overhit the shot by a hair and ended up on the top tier - as a result I was left with a putt that I only had to move forward and even then it flew over 6 feet past the hole. There was just no way of stopping it from that position unless I hit the hole - I had no problem with that as I should never have been on the top tier and knew the likely outcome if I did.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 07:52:56 PM by David McIntosh »

Randy Thompson

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2018, 09:23:30 PM »
 Tom.
I thought the first photo may be one of yours by the way it fits like a glove into the surroundings and secondly because the green in its present form works from so many different angles. So much so, I need to ask where is the tee in relation to the picture. If the picture was taken from the tee or above the tee, then it works really well, if the tee is to the left of the picture it also works excellent because your hitting into an angled green which toughens it up. If the photo is looking back on the hole in the direction of the tee, which I presume it is not for the location of the bunker, it would be really cool and I recently did something similar on an eighty-five yards, par 3 at Papudo. I assume the photo of this hole is one of the shorter Par 3īs of this new golfing experience. The bowls are definetlly cool and the front bowl not so notable in the photo and should prevent a train wrecks and if not within the leather a reasonable recovery distance.
I donīt understand your example of Rivera, I referred to well struck or near perfect putts should be able to be left within the leather and I still stand by that concept. Actually, I referred to the perfect putt, which was a mistake because the perfect putt would result in the hole, unless the speed was so great that the ball would skip right over the center of the hole. I also donīt understand how you would find unfun putting through a fringe up hill but hitting a great putt from above and rolling eight to ten feet past is fun.

Randy Thompson

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2018, 09:30:07 PM »
 I am a firm believer in all is fair in love, war and golf but I am licking my wounds a little since my last three greens done in a recent renovation were in my opinion my best out of more than 500 greens and I was forced to flatten them after only eighteen months. There were a lot of hidden politics involved and they were gaining support as thatch formed and the membership got accustomed. It started with lets do a few specific softening to two of the tiers, then the idea was lets poll the membership and when it became the apparent that the majority of the membership would have preferred, sin tiers and mas gradual slopes like the other fifteen greens that have the typical design style of twenty five years ago when the other fifteen greens were designed by my firm but, the problem wasnīt so drastic requiring a redo and flatten. I explained before we started we could control cost by using the native fine sand and not installing internal drainage but they would need exceptional surface drainage which would be obtained through highly contoured greens. I can educate or justify my design ideas to a small committee but not 800 members. That committee agreed with my recommendations and approved the final product with excitement but failed to educate the members when comments like, I donīt want pga tour greens, putt-putt greens and there just down outright-Anti Golf! Chileīs only association with a professional golf course architect before the turn of the century is a few courses with the participation of the construction superintendent that worked for the good doctor! I believe there around fifteen thousand golfers in the country and most likely one or two know what is a Berlitz green. A little known architect firm out of the states developed four or five courses at the turn of the century and I did a consulting report for the last one they did and was pleasantly surprised to come across a Berlitz. When I met with the board to share my findings and give them my recommendations they asked me if in the future I would be willing to eliminate and redo that horrible green!
Conclusions
The course with the three new greens is about 6400 yards and laid out in-conjunction with a housing development so the fairways are wide and the course is generally a pleasant and easy test of golf. I saw the opportunity to make three or four small greens within one and have some easy pin position and some difficult. One tier in one of the greens probably pushed the limits to much and for eighteen months they never put pin on the back tier. They have a small open every summer with a few local professionals and several proīs approached the officials and begged not to put the pin back there. -27 won. It has a slope of about 3 feet, sharp not gradual. In my opinion you can get away with more on a new design. I have learned in a redesign you have to respect what are the desires of the existing membership and mostly they will support anything that makes the course easier and bitch about anything difficult or challenging. I consider myself a good putter and a good pool player and therefore I donīt have problems with long putts that changes direction two or three times. It is a skill and a good test of golf should allow me the opportunity to demonstrate my ability. I am a middle handicap and sixy one years old. I canīt hit 300 yard drives, I donīt reach par fiveīs in two, I donīt chip in from bunkers and the only birdies in my rounds are in the trees. So, when I have long difficult putt with a couple of breaks and I can visualize it and feel it and I make it or almost make it, its like ok Tiger, here are ten balls beat that, it’s a high and keeps me from retiring and taking up tennis! If there was a way to survey the worlds golfers I would guess that less than 10 percent would consider fun a putt with a pin position at the bottom of a slope that if it doesnīt go in the hole it rolls by ten feet or more. The link below shows one of the greens that I had to be rebuild and I have pictures of the other two if anybody want to post them. I no longer have any idea on how to post pictures on this site.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63778.0.html

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2018, 10:19:22 PM »
Randy:

I have a picture on my phone of the hole at Ballyneal, from the tee.  Don't know how to post it here but I will email it to you.

As for my comment about #6 at Riviera, I guarantee you there are places on that green where the intervention of the bunker means you can't get a putt within the leather.  I suspect Thomas's original green was larger at the back so that you could use the slope to steer around the bunker and get closer than today, but still, not always within the leather.

So ... are you going to tell me we should blow that one up, and I should never build a green like that?

There's the same problem with the Road Hole at St. Andrews.  You're on the front left corner of the green and the hole is back left, with the Road bunker intervening?  Nope, you can't get a putt inside the leather.  You gonna blow that one up, too?

So there are two great and famous holes where your rule of thumb does not apply, and you should really think about why it should apply anywhere else.

When I asked Pete Dye what I should do on my overseas trip, this is exactly what he told me to do ... become familiar with all of the best holes, and show people that nothing I was doing was more severe than those.

There is a great article by Ron Whitten in this month's GOLF DIGEST about Mr. Dye's legacy.  He spent a lot of time talking to Alice, with Pete right in the room, but really unable to answer now.  Luckily Alice can still tell it like it is.  There are a bunch of quotes from her but I thought Ron saved the best ones for last:

"The main thing about Pete's career was that he had courage to do what nobody else would do.  He went way out on a limb with every golf course he built.  And the next one wasn't anything like the course he'd just built.

Every single green he built was a fresh idea.  He never went to a drawer and pulled out a drawing, because we don't have any drawings of his greens.  Every green came from his head, a new idea on that particular spot.  He's done all the greens on all his courses."

That's not quite true; I did the first versions of a couple of greens with Pete's name on them, and others did, too, but they weren't good to go until Pete (and Alice!) approved of them.  Mrs. Dye also pointed out that one of Pete's strengths was that "he never had any pride ... he just wanted to build golf courses like a kid wanting to play with clay."  He was able to try out new ideas, and let other people suggest ideas, but he wasn't afraid to give them up [usually while they were still in the dirt] if they really didn't work.

That's the way I was taught, and I have done my best to hold myself to the same standard.  It's not always easy to pull it off.  Probably more difficult for you because you're in such a small market; if a few people are vocal about not liking something, there aren't plenty of other golfers to take their spots on the tee sheet.  But it really helps if you can talk them down based on examples of great courses!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 10:26:14 PM by Tom_Doak »

Randy Thompson

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Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2018, 12:59:41 AM »
 Tom,
  I have a problem with the pin position not the green, the green is spectacular. There seems to be several pin positions that on the lower terrace that would allow for a keep it the leather putt from above. And if there is not, you are probably in the right environment with a par three course, to push the limits.
I read the article about Pete during a break when I was writing my first post and thought it was super. I think Mr.Dye and the Good Doctor took more risks after rising to the top of their timeīand you are now in the same position to do so. I also read the thread about how much during the last thirty years we have changed how we look or define at what is considered a quality golfing experience. Through your books and well received creations, I would have to say you were a major force behind this change in thinking. So if anybody can increase the percentage of people that accept putts that canīt be left close itīs you, not me!
What interesting is in about six weeks I will be opening the second nine at Papudo with the second nine grass greens completing the conversion from sand greens to grass. The three greens controversy is twenty minutes by car from Papudo and I was asked to please make the greens easy, flat and boring. I justified and educated the president gradually as he never left me alone and I managed to do eight interesting greens with gradual movement and some interesting pin positions and lots of variety between them all. The eighty yard Par 3 is wild but fun and fair and all nine have been met with 100% satisfaction by the membership. So, on the second nine when I suggested we do a double green with a double bunker in the middle there was no hesitation and the authorities gave me the go ahead. The green I believe is around 14,000 square feet and the challenge was like in any double green, the irrigation design. Due to the limited resources they are using park sprinklers that shoot 18 meters in comparison to a golf course sprinkler that covers twenty four meters. The only way to make it work with the smaller sprinkler was to have an island or a bunker in the middle. There will be about fifteen feet of green on each side of the bunkers where you will have no access anywhere near the pins. I thought about leaving these areas at collar height and letting them chip but then it becomes two greens in one complex. If we take that route it will better to change the bent to the fescue mix. We have decided to open with the double green concept and maintain the area at normal greens height and create a local rule that these areas are to be consider a foreign putting surface and your allowed to take a drop to a designated drop area without penalty and that area will have direct access to the hole location. Some will question my timing and consider this a bad business move after what happened down the road but if I canīt push the limits through originality I prefer to leave the design business and concentrate my effort on consulting in maintenance and bringing out the maximum potential of existing golf courses.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Slopes, tiers and putting surface severity
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2018, 08:23:47 AM »
Randy:  I don't think Mr Dye or Dr MacKenzie took any more or any less risks in their designs once they became more prominent; it was in their DNA and even their earliest designs were unconventional.  Perhaps they got more acceptance and less pushback once they were put on a pedestal, but that's another discussion entirely.


I admire you for taking risks in your work but I also think South America could use it's own Donald Ross, putting out good solid courses with classic greens that don't all look like they came off a computer.