Lawsonia update

[BHoover]

I can't imagine missing 1 round on the Links for the Woodlands, SentryWorld, or for that matter the American Club or Erin Hills.  It's that good (and suits my mediocre game and budget better than those overhyped and overpriced tournament tracks).  As one GCA member said when we had the Midwest Mashie there and was shocked at what he saw, "If this course were private and on Long Island, everyone would be falling all over themselves to get out."  Frankly it's going to be a rather tall order for Sand Valley to measure up to this quality and value proposition IMO...

This is high praise indeed. I'm doing a Wisconsin weekend in August. Currently planning to do a full day at Lawsonia Links and then a round at Erin Hills the following day. Is it really worth it to skip EH to play a third round at Lawsonia?

[RJ_Daley]

Cornish and Whitten lists the Woodlands as a "Joe Lee, Rocky Roquemore" design. My sense is that Lee did the original 9 of the Woodlands, and Roquemore did the second nine and made some revisions to the original nine there.

Phil, I seem to remember that Bob Lohmann did the new 9 sometime around1989-90  I might be wrong. 

[Jud_T]

Brian,

I would play Erin Hills if you never have and are getting 36 in at the Links, then make up your own mind.  I've already made mine up.

[RJ_Daley]

Frankly it's going to be a rather tall order for Sand Valley to measure up to this quality and value proposition IMO...

That is an interesting thought, Jud.   It would be premature to try and evaluate Sand Valley for comparison purposes of course.  But as to quality AND value... well you would have to go a long way to find a quality to value ratio as attractive to Lawsonia.  Wild Horse of course... 

But, given Oliphant is involved with Kaiser in cahoots with Coore and Crenshaw to bring the first course in at Sand Valley, and given the land quality at Sand Valley, it is almost inconceivable to me that Sand Valley won't be a world beater in quality.  Value, or as I like consider, affordability, may be another matter.  We'll just have to wait and see. 
 

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't get the Value thing. Seems like the price has doubled since I played back when Erin Hills opened.

[Doug Siebert]

I don't get the Value thing. Seems like the price has doubled since I played back when Erin Hills opened.

If it was really cheap before and they double the price so it is only sorta cheap, it is still a good value for the quality of the course. Looks like as little as $35 during the shoulder seasons, and even during high season weekend rates it is only $90 including cart, or $145 for all day play.  Not many courses that calibre with such attractive rates - try getting an all day play deal from Pebble and see what they'd charge if they offered it! Well, I guess you actually can, but only because it takes all day to play a single 18 hole round there...

[PCCraig]

I can't imagine missing 1 round on the Links for the Woodlands, SentryWorld, or for that matter the American Club or Erin Hills.  It's that good (and suits my mediocre game and budget better than those overhyped and overpriced tournament tracks).  As one GCA member said when we had the Midwest Mashie there and was shocked at what he saw, "If this course were private and on Long Island, everyone would be falling all over themselves to get out."  Frankly it's going to be a rather tall order for Sand Valley to measure up to this quality and value proposition IMO...

This is high praise indeed. I'm doing a Wisconsin weekend in August. Currently planning to do a full day at Lawsonia Links and then a round at Erin Hills the following day. Is it really worth it to skip EH to play a third round at Lawsonia?

If you've never played Erin Hills (I don't think you have?) and you're already in the area I would say 36 (or more) on the Links, then 18 at EH would be a good combo. 

[BHoover]

I can't imagine missing 1 round on the Links for the Woodlands, SentryWorld, or for that matter the American Club or Erin Hills.  It's that good (and suits my mediocre game and budget better than those overhyped and overpriced tournament tracks).  As one GCA member said when we had the Midwest Mashie there and was shocked at what he saw, "If this course were private and on Long Island, everyone would be falling all over themselves to get out."  Frankly it's going to be a rather tall order for Sand Valley to measure up to this quality and value proposition IMO...

This is high praise indeed. I'm doing a Wisconsin weekend in August. Currently planning to do a full day at Lawsonia Links and then a round at Erin Hills the following day. Is it really worth it to skip EH to play a third round at Lawsonia?

If you've never played Erin Hills (I don't think you have?) and you're already in the area I would say 36 (or more) on the Links, then 18 at EH would be a good combo.

That's currently the plan! I'm looking forward to it.

[Phil McDade]

Brian:


I'd agree with Pat on the 36/18 plan -- there aren't too many public-access U.S. Open sites in the world, and EHills is one of the few. It's a pretty polarizing course -- perhaps one reason it's worth a round. There is some really good golf at EHills, but I also think it has some odd quirks and features.

[Jason Thurman]

Hoover, I love Lawsonia. Truthfully, the "big 4" in Wisconsin (Erin Hills, Lawsonia, Straits, and Blackwolf Run River) are all excellent and it's hard for me to pick a favorite of the group.


Lawsonia's overall value is what really separates it from the others, as I can't see justifying ever spending the cash on peak-season rates in Kohler when I can play all day at Lawsonia for four days and buy $20 worth of beer for the same cost as a single round at the Straits. But Erin Hills, to me, is a treat that's well worth checking out at their current rates, especially considering that the cost will likely skyrocket once the last putt in the 2017 US Open drops. It's probably my favorite public course in Wisconsin, although my answer may change tomorrow.

[BHoover]

Jason, thanks for the comment. The reason I want to play Erin Hills is that it's a relatively easy drive from where I now live, and I already was planning to be at Lawsonia the day before. I also will admit that I liked what I saw of EH during the US Am a few years back, and it will be easier to play there this year than next year and after the 2017 Open.

I'm looking forward to playing both Lawsonia (because I missed the Mashie there) and EH.

I also agree about not wanting to pay regular season rates at Kohler (although I do want to get out there at some point). And then with the opening of Sand Valley, that's another reason to visit Wisconsin (not to mention the water park capital of the world--Wisconsin Dells when my son is a bit older).

[Steve Kline]

I just played Lawsonia today for the first time.


WOW!!!


What else could you ever possibly need in a golf course?


I went through several of the old threads and it is hard to even recognize the course from five to seven years ago to what I played today. So many more of the trees have come down in the time the last photos were posted on this site.


Recent weather in Green Lake has been quite rainy so the the course was somewhat soft. And, the temperature today barely got to 40 with a good 15-25 mph wind per weather.com. So, from the tips the course played quite long. For example, into a strong headwind with a slight left to right angle, I hit a really good drive and six iron on #1 and still came up short.


A great set of greens that were true and fast (made even faster by the wind). I repeatedly got to a green and just chuckled about how awesome it was and how much I was having (I was one of two groups on the course. The other was a twosome and I only saw them one time. Oh...and I played for $45).


The par 3s were fantastic...and hard.


A really interesting set of par 5s as well.


Lots of blind tee shots. I was not prepared for that. Or the overall undulation of the property. Just great land movement and several of the par 5s made great use of that land movement.


The only negative would be the abundance of dogleg rights. But, I just got done playing Sand Valley which had an abundance of dogleg lefts.


Definitely need to come back to Lawsonia and play in some F&F conditions.

[Joe Hancock]

Steve,


The place is the real deal, isn’t it?


I’ve only played it once, and keep feeling like I need a return trip.

[Michael Whitaker]

The golf world would be a much better place with more Lawsonia type courses, wouldn’t it!

I ask again... why did this style fall out of favor? I’d give anything to have a course like Lawsonia near me in SC.

[Mike Hendren]

The golf world would be a much better place with more Lawsonia type courses, wouldn’t it!

I ask again... why did this style fall out of favor? I’d give anything to have a course like Lawsonia near me in SC.

Michael, your question implies that those architects that this site believes are bringing about a "New Golden Age" could build a Lawsonia in their sleep if they chose to do so. 

Or perhaps, there's no money in it.

Either way, that's how we wind up with a Mammoth Dunes and the masses who will flock there.

Bogey

[Michael Whitaker]

Bogey - your reply to my question makes no sense to me. My question didn’t imply anything. I have asked many times in multiple threads on this site why the design style of Lawsonia (and similar courses) was abandoned after the passing of Langford & Moreau, Raynor, Macdonald, Banks, etc. Their courses are so popular one would think the style would have been continued... or resurrected by some enterprising archie looking for a unique niche. I think an architect would have to be really committed to the style to make it would. There have been a few efforts... ie Silva's Black Creek in Chattanooga... but, the TOTAL commitment to the style never seems to be there and “something” is missing. I’d like to see if the new course at Arcadia Bluffs really fits the bill.

[Michael Whitaker]

And, what the heck has Mammoth Dunes got to do with the style of Lawsonia? You lost me there as well.

[Matthew Sander]

Michael W.,


It’s a good question and one that begs another question (which certainly has been discussed in thousands of GCA posts), what are the definitive hallmarks of the style?


Do you think that much of Pete Dye’s work is at least derivative of the style? I think there are some visual similarities in shaping. I don’t think his greens en masse have quite the same singularity as the greens of these particular ODGs.

[size=78%]Even if Dye’s work can bring them to mind, he is but one example and his style is unique in the design world which supports, rather than  refutes your point.[/size]

[Mike Treitler]

Lawsonia Links is as good as it gets and one of my all time favorite courses to play.   The fun meter is just through the roof.


You must come back and play it in August or so when the conditions are fast and firm.   


As for new courses not being built this way... I did actually see a lot of Lawsonia Links in the new Arcadia Bluffs South course.  Hopefully more will follow.

[RJ_Daley]

As probably noted many times before about the question of why the design style abandoned the great earthworks of the L&M or  MacRaynor, I think lies in the embrace of easier mowing efficiency as a general design directive by developers and maintenance minded supers as years progressed.  The teens through 30s didn't care as much about the cost of labor.  They could have large crews doing a great deal of hand work to maintain the long mounds and steep sided green platforms, etc.  Just my thoughts...

[Tom_Doak]

Do you think that much of Pete Dye’s work is at least derivative of the style?

It is well documented that Alice Dye grew up on a Langford and Moreau golf course, and that she and Pete were both huge fans of that style.  There's no doubt it was an influence on their work.  However, Pete generally built his greens at grade, instead of on fill pads as Langford did.  This was especially necessary when he was working in the southeast on flattish sites, where it was harder to make fill pads tie into the landscape.  A Langford course with development lots on both sides of the fairway would look pretty silly.

[William_G]

Do you think that much of Pete Dye’s work is at least derivative of the style?

It is well documented that Alice Dye grew up on a Langford and Moreau golf course, and that she and Pete were both huge fans of that style.  There's no doubt it was an influence on their work.  However, Pete generally built his greens at grade, instead of on fill pads as Langford did.  This was especially necessary when he was working in the southeast on flattish sites, where it was harder to make fill pads tie into the landscape.  A Langford course with development lots on both sides of the fairway would look pretty silly.

yet Dye's best layout for many may have been early in his career, the Golf Club, and thereafter maybe Harbour Town, yet further down the line his faux design work at Sawgrass is one of my favorites, yet further faux Straits is an abomination


thanks Tom, but Lawsonia is very appealing and is not all all fill pads as you infer derogatorily despite the location on the globe


not sure what your point here is Tom as you did not reference Lawsonia Links


sure glad Alice grew up on a golf course, but which one?


good luck with Sedge


http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/mark-chalfant-the-architecture-of-william-b-langford/


cheers