Total Elevation Change on a Single Course

[Jeff Evagues]

What's the name of that crazy course in Hawaii with like a 160 slope from the tips?

Koolau, but that's not as hilly as others in the state.

[MCirba]

I recently played a public golf course in Pennsylvania that had over 300 feet of elevation change throughout the eighteen holes.

Remarkably, most of the front nine is almost dead flat, with the entire elevation change consisting of going from the 9th green to the 14th tee before starting back down.

I attempted to walk this course carrying solo on a humid, 90+ degree day.   I made it to just shy of the 12th green before calling the clubhouse to send a cart rescue as I was getting light-headed.   

Sometimes, when someone says a course is unwalkable I guess that's true.

What was the course if you don't mind me asking?


Chris

Hi Chris,
The course is named Rock Creek GC, in Nicholson, PA, formerly known as Kimaquan GC.
The flat front nine was built in 1991 and over time another owner (who loved golf) took over and decided to build a second nine ("on the mountain") in the words of the woman who rescued me.
I think what was stunning...and daunting in the case of this particular course was that all 300 feet of elevation change took place between the 9th green and the 14th tee.   I had a pull cart and felt like a donkey.   Others might use a synonym. 

[Matthew Petersen]

When I played Doral (before the renovation), I asked a guy in the pro shop what total elevation change was.  He said twelve feet.  Not sure if that's right or not, but I'll bet there's some course somewhere with less.

A couple of questions:

• What's the great elevation change on a single hole (anywhere)?  Par 3?  4?  5?
• Is there a course where the highest and lowest points on the property are on the same hole?

There are probably plenty of courses with around 10-12 feet of elevation change, but not many with less than that.  You've got to have somewhere for the water to go.


The property for The Rawls Course had THREE feet of elevation change to start with.


I don't know the answers to your other questions.  I doubt anyone has a definitive answer to any of them ... most would be found on awful courses.  On a top-100 course, the most elevation change I can think of is 110 feet, from the 10th tee at Augusta to the low in front of the green, but it's possible there are a couple I'm not thinking of on newer courses.  Going uphill, there are two holes at Pasatiempo that climb 90 feet from tee to green, the 9th and 11th.


Your latter query is possible, if an architect was starting with no elevation change and wanted to maximize the impact of his earthworks; but I don't think you would ever find the natural high and low of rolling property that close together.

Talking Stick North might have had less than 3 feet elevation change at the start

A bit of an exaggeration.


The hill that the 15th green sits on is pretty obviously a natural rise in topography. Google has that side of the property a whole 20 feet higher than where the second tee is!

[Ira Fishman]

Evanston Golf Club (Ross) and Bryn Mawr Country Club (Langford I think) both just outside Chicago cannot have more than 10 feet of elevation change (low to high point or vice versa).


Ira

[George Pazin]

I wonder how many could come even remotely close in guessing their home course's change from low to high. I looked in on mine, North Park Muni , and it's about 100 feet. I'd have guessed much more, though I consider it a pleasant walk. Most of that change comes from the 4th green to the 6th green. The 4th is a drop shot par 3, the 6th is a climbing par 4, with a slightly climbing 5th bending around a hill sandwiched in between the two.


There are few, if any, flat-ish courses in western PA. Fox Chapel is about as close as I can think. That area isn't flat, but the course finds most of the good land.


Having said all that, elevation change means little to me in evaluating a course. I'd prefer the micro changes of TOC to the macro changes of many others. Judging how elevation changes affect a shot is much more about experience than imagination, imho, and I prefer the latter over the former.

[Ed Brzezowski]

I recently played a public golf course in Pennsylvania that had over 300 feet of elevation change throughout the eighteen holes.

Remarkably, most of the front nine is almost dead flat, with the entire elevation change consisting of going from the 9th green to the 14th tee before starting back down.

I attempted to walk this course carrying solo on a humid, 90+ degree day.   I made it to just shy of the 12th green before calling the clubhouse to send a cart rescue as I was getting light-headed.   

Sometimes, when someone says a course is unwalkable I guess that's true.

Captain Morgan Hill?

[Ben Hollerbach]

The Country Club of Asheville has just over 320 feet of elevation change from the low point to the high point. Whats most interesting is from the 11th green you'll climb over 280 feet to reach the 15th green. Within this stretch, you also will play a down hill par 3 and at least 1 down hill tee shot.

[Tim Leahy]

There was a course in the Col Rockies called Eagle's Nest that may be NLE now that had a huge drop and may have been the top.
If you added up the elavation changes between holes Lake Chabot in the Oakland hills would win it hands down. Bagtag was a mountain goat.

[Matthew Essig]

Pasatiempo has right around 300 feet of elevation change.


I've used that as my standard for a maximum.  Two of my courses, Stone Eagle and Rock Creek, are just over 300 feet.  Stone Eagle is a tougher walk because it goes up and down the same hill multiple times, where Rock Creek is one long loop up to the top and down to the bottom and back to the middle.  But both are still walkable.


I've heard of some crazy stuff overseas on courses that are meant for carts only.


According to Google Earth Kapalua goes from 500 feet at the 16th green down to 74 feet at the 2nd tee.  Their old Village course went even higher - 737 feet at the high point, 91 at the low - but that course has now disappeared.


I do have a course in planning that would drop 300 feet from the 10th tee to the 11th green ... but the finish is down in the valley below, so you wouldn't have to walk back up the hill, only down.

I'm curious. Do you remember how far it is from #4's upper fairway down to #15-17 on Tumble Creek?

[Wade Whitehead]

I'm guessing that the PGA Tour course with the most elevation change would be Kapalua
and that the least would be Harbor Town.
WW

[Thomas Dai]

Quite a few courses in hilly parts of Spain go up and down quite a bit.
For an example see the first course highlighted in this thread - [size=78%]http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60409.msg1430293.html#msg1430293[/size]
Fun course actually and better golf than might first seem to be the case. Buggy golf though, even more so given the temperatures.
Atb

[Doug Wright]

There's another course I played last fall in the NC mountains with as much or more elevation change than the Colorado mountain courses:  Trillium near Cashiers. It really should be called "Thrillium" due to the exciting downhill cart rides. It's the only course I've played where I had vertigo, which is not helpful to shotmaking! It might get better after more than one playing but I found the course, and particularly the repetitive downhill par 3s, very boring.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I would think one of the struggles of mountainous or very hilly sites is avoiding the classic drop shot par 3s, at least excessively, and avoiding narrow par 4s benched into hillsides/mountainsides.  I think most are unavoidable unless you have like 1000 acres or something.

[MCirba]

Still haven't heard a contender for 12 wooded, hilly, rugged miles. 


Just sayin...   

[Chris_Blakely]

Chris

Hi Chris,
The course is named Rock Creek GC, in Nicholson, PA, formerly known as Kimaquan GC.
The flat front nine was built in 1991 and over time another owner (who loved golf) took over and decided to build a second nine ("on the mountain") in the words of the woman who rescued me.
I think what was stunning...and daunting in the case of this particular course was that all 300 feet of elevation change took place between the 9th green and the 14th tee.   I had a pull cart and felt like a donkey.   Others might use a synonym. 





Mike


Hope you were able to finish your round.  Interesting that this is the course as it came down to this course or Towanda when I was in the area earlier in the year.


Chris

[MCirba]

Chris,


After the rescue I drove back up there with a lot of ice water and finish the round, thanks.


How was Towanda? It is on my short list.

[MClutterbuck]

I have never been able to find a number, but Kapalua Plantation has to be in the mix.


Now, the undisputed highest elevation course is Mt. Massive in Leadville, CO which is 10,152 feet above sea level.  My sister lives in Leadville so played it once--still could not hit the driver very far.


Ira

Is that for the US? There are much higher courses in South America.

[MClutterbuck]

El Desafio has 607ft elevation change from the 11th tees to the 6th green.


However, you avoid a 322ft climb if you walk the course, by being shuttled to the 10th tees. So you have a net 285ft descent.


The par 5 18th has a net descent of 261ft, but the landing area is more than 400 ft wide.

The largest uphill elevation is the par 5 16th, 115ft, on 534 yards.

[Chris_Blakely]

Chris,


After the rescue I drove back up there with a lot of ice water and finish the round, thanks.


How was Towanda? It is on my short list.

Mike


Towanda was a solid course.  Front 9 is original 9 built in the 20s.  It is less hilly than the newer back9.


Chris

[Sean_A]

Sean:

I agree that "total climb" is a better measure of how difficult a course may be to walk, but it takes a lot of calculation to get to those totals.  The numbers I've cited are just the difference from the high point of the course to the low point.

Tom

For sure, but I would also add that simply stating elevation change can be very misleading.  I think Kington has about 100 yards of elevation change compared to Cleeve Cloud which I would bet is about half that.  To me, CC is a far harder walk because it goes up and down, up and down etc rather than up then down...same for Roaring Gap.  And taht is without mentioning grade.  For instance, the 1st at Painswick is at about a 15% grade...total madness. The grade on Kington's 1st, the worst climb, is about half that! 

Ciao

[Joe_Tucholski]

When I played Doral (before the renovation), I asked a guy in the pro shop what total elevation change was.  He said twelve feet.  Not sure if that's right or not, but I'll bet there's some course somewhere with less.

A couple of questions:

• What's the great elevation change on a single hole (anywhere)?  Par 3?  4?  5?
• Is there a course where the highest and lowest points on the property are on the same hole?

WW

Greatest elevation change on a single hole has to be the par 3 at Legend Golf Resort in South Africa, also reportedly the longest par 3.
A 19th hole and clearly a gimmick but figure it counts at over 1300 feet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iZMg8Wv-cg

[Matthew Petersen]

There was a course in the Col Rockies called Eagle's Nest that may be NLE now that had a huge drop and may have been the top.
If you added up the elavation changes between holes Lake Chabot in the Oakland hills would win it hands down. Bagtag was a mountain goat.

Eagle's Nest is NLE (and good riddance), though it has been replaced sort of by another course called the Raven at Three Peaks that sits in sort of the same area. A few holes occupy the same corridors but it's basically an entirely new course and there's not nearly as much up and down as there was at Eagle's Nest.