Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?

[Jason Topp]

I would make a huge number of changes at Augusta National for the tournament tees.  I suspect the member tees play well as they are.
General changes:
Rough – I would eliminate outside of the tree line.
Bunkers – I would restore the Mackenzie look to them.
Length – I believe that the par 4’s play a very similar yardage – approximately 450 yards - with some such as the 10^th measuring longer but playing about that distance.  I would create more variety by lengthening some holes to make them play as true long par 4's and shortening others.  The result would be a more varied and interesting test that more closely reflects the original ideas behind the design.
Specific Holes:
1.    Take out trees just to the right of the fairway bunker.  Make laying up short of the bunker a valid strategic play.
2.     Move the fairway bunker to the inside corner of the dogleg.  The current bunker on the outside of the fairway serves to merely catch errant shots.  A bunker on the inside corner about a 310 yard carry off the tee will create some temptation to take a tight line and require the player to choose between an aggressive and conservative tee shot.  I am also unsure that the bunker short left of the green adds much and might eliminate it.
3.    No changes.  This hole has become better as it has become feasible to drive.
4.    No changes.  I could be convinced to eliminate trees around the green to increase the wind but the swirling that happens now might be more interesting.
5.    Lengthen to 500 yards, adjust bunker position as appropriate.  Players can just hit 3 wood and short iron to this hole today.
6.    No changes
7.    Shorten to 400 yards, restore green to honor 18 at the Old course with a valley of sin.  A tight lie chip provides as much challenge as a front bunker shot given the groomed condition of today’s bunkers.  I would shorten this hole rather than widen it to honor the original intent that it be a short tight hole.
8.    No changes
9.    Lengthen to 500 yards.  This hole is a short wedge for too many today.  I would lengthen the hole to require a long drive down the left side in order to obtain the short iron approach.
10.  Lengthen by 50 yards.  This hole descends 10 stories.  Players hit 3 wood today to hook it an catch the down-slope.  I would increase the challenge by moving the tee behind the putting green.
11. .Eliminate the grove of trees on the right added about 10 years ago and lengthen if necessary.  This hole was intended to be a strategic hole with an aggressive tee shot to the right rewarded with a better angle.  The added length has increased the varety of length approach shots on the hole but because of the trees it is now one dimensional off the tee.
12. No changes
13. Lengthen a bit and widen out the right side a bit.  Needs a bit more length off the tee to eliminate the tee shot over the corner trees.  I would also widen the right side a bit.  That right side seems way narrower than it once was and probably requires a 40 yard hood to avoid the pine needles that play such a big role in today’s game.ow the hole is so squeezed off the tee that
14. Lengthen 40 yards. If not a reasonable option leave as is.
15. Eliminate half the trees on the left.  I would love to lengthen this hole a bit to restore the need to fly a wood into this green but it does not look feasible.  I hate how the fairway pinches today but without this defense the hole would play very short on all but a day into a strong wind.  Eliminating some of the trees on the left would at least create some interesting gambling decisions. 
16. No changes
17.  Shorten to 400 yards.  The back nine par 4’s are all slogs, particularly with my suggested changes.  We need a change of pace.  Shortening this hole would create more of a chance for dramatic birdies on the penultimate hole.
18. Eliminate trees to the left of the landing area but add another fairway bunker to short and left of the first one.  I would create more room to bailout but require that the player hit a 200 yard shot uphill if he chooses to do so. 

[DFarron]

Cypress #18....pull all the trees on the right and stagger some bunkers up the hill.

[Alan Ritchie]

I’d change every hole on Black if we were talking about mowing lines.

While it might be a maintenance issue, I'm still interested in the detail of what you're getting at, specifically on...


2, 5, 9, 12, 15... ?

There probably are few courses as good as Bethpage that suffer so adversely from overly-narrowed fairways and thick rough, robbing much of the original strategic intention. It's terrific challenge comes from the land movement, bunkering and length. It doesn't need more defense, unless it's being set up purely for modern major championships — which it is, sadly.


Of the holes you mentioned, I'd say only #9 is set up well, assuming we ignore the greenside bunkers being buried in rough. #2 is the only relative short par 4, so even though the fairway is needlessly narrowed, I could give that a pass for now.


But #5 is egregious. Like most holes on the course, the only option off the tee is long and straight over the bunker with no truly safe lay-up option. There is an ocean of unnecessary rough on the left side of the fairway that should be short grass, tempting players to hit out in that direction and leave themselves with a much tougher approach that could be longer, blinder, blocked out by trees, with more carry required and with a harsher angle for bailing out up by the green. 


It's the same issue that's found on #15. Oceans of open rough surrounding U.S. Open-narrow fairways. Both holes are already the hardest on the course, requiring your longest, straightest drive of the day, and then both have the two uphill, all carry, long approaches that help make the course famous. You could remove all the rough on #15 and it wouldn't play that much easier. Without a perfect long drive, that second shot is one of the hardest around even from short grass. Even worse, the slight left dog leg effectively narrows the landing zone even more off the tee.


On #15, the right side fairway should be well-expanded. Players should be tempted to play safe out in that direction, setting up a similar situation as #5. It leads to a longer approach from a worse angle with more carry and less bailout by the green. My preferred miss on #15 is the left rough, cutting the corner a bit and having a strip of un-bunkered grass directly between me and the green to bailout short on.


#12 is similar again. The fairway is blind, with a slight left dogleg, and the safe play appears to be out to the right where you can see some landing area and a lot of open space. But the fairway is so narrow that most shots in that direction roll through into the rough, compounding what is already a longer second shot and worsening angle to the green. Players should be tempted to play far out right, especially if they aren't confident clearing the fairway cross bunker. As it is, thanks to the uber-slim margin of error like on #15, the only drive that works is perfect and straight or perfect with a slight draw. 


And don't even get me started on all the rough down the right on #6, removing probably the best strategic decision on the course: playing the straight hero shot for a clear look at the green, or playing out safely right and having a blind second.


It's frustrating because you could remove all the rough on Black and have one of the most fun courses you ever played. The only thing the current set up has going for it is that you get to see how many times in a round you can pull off the exact perfect drive you envisioned in your mind, because anything less is usually in extremely boring rough trouble. But that's the point. The tourists want to get their butt kicked just like the pros did in '02 and '09. Meanwhile, us regulars only get part of what is otherwise a truly special course.

Described perfectly. Would be so much better without all that stuff but as you say everyone wants to be beaten up for some reason

[Mark Fedeli]

I’d change every hole on Black if we were talking about mowing lines.

While it might be a maintenance issue, I'm still interested in the detail of what you're getting at, specifically on...


2, 5, 9, 12, 15... ?

There probably are few courses as good as Bethpage that suffer so adversely from overly-narrowed fairways and thick rough, robbing much of the original strategic intention. It's terrific challenge comes from the land movement, bunkering and length. It doesn't need more defense, unless it's being set up purely for modern major championships — which it is, sadly.


Of the holes you mentioned, I'd say only #9 is set up well, assuming we ignore the greenside bunkers being buried in rough. #2 is the only relative short par 4, so even though the fairway is needlessly narrowed, I could give that a pass for now.


But #5 is egregious. Like most holes on the course, the only option off the tee is long and straight over the bunker with no truly safe lay-up option. There is an ocean of unnecessary rough on the left side of the fairway that should be short grass, tempting players to hit out in that direction and leave themselves with a much tougher approach that could be longer, blinder, blocked out by trees, with more carry required and with a harsher angle for bailing out up by the green. 


It's the same issue that's found on #15. Oceans of open rough surrounding U.S. Open-narrow fairways. Both holes are already the hardest on the course, requiring your longest, straightest drive of the day, and then both have the two uphill, all carry, long approaches that help make the course famous. You could remove all the rough on #15 and it wouldn't play that much easier. Without a perfect long drive, that second shot is one of the hardest around even from short grass. Even worse, the slight left dog leg effectively narrows the landing zone even more off the tee.


On #15, the right side fairway should be well-expanded. Players should be tempted to play safe out in that direction, setting up a similar situation as #5. It leads to a longer approach from a worse angle with more carry and less bailout by the green. My preferred miss on #15 is the left rough, cutting the corner a bit and having a strip of un-bunkered grass directly between me and the green to bailout short on.


#12 is similar again. The fairway is blind, with a slight left dogleg, and the safe play appears to be out to the right where you can see some landing area and a lot of open space. But the fairway is so narrow that most shots in that direction roll through into the rough, compounding what is already a longer second shot and worsening angle to the green. Players should be tempted to play far out right, especially if they aren't confident clearing the fairway cross bunker. As it is, thanks to the uber-slim margin of error like on #15, the only drive that works is perfect and straight or perfect with a slight draw. 


And don't even get me started on all the rough down the right on #6, removing probably the best strategic decision on the course: playing the straight hero shot for a clear look at the green, or playing out safely right and having a blind second.


It's frustrating because you could remove all the rough on Black and have one of the most fun courses you ever played. The only thing the current set up has going for it is that you get to see how many times in a round you can pull off the exact perfect drive you envisioned in your mind, because anything less is usually in extremely boring rough trouble. But that's the point. The tourists want to get their butt kicked just like the pros did in '02 and '09. Meanwhile, us regulars only get part of what is otherwise a truly special course.

Described perfectly. Would be so much better without all that stuff but as you say everyone wants to be beaten up for some reason

I'll try to bring some of these things up to people on the course occasionally, and most of them look at me like I'm crazy. They think the narrow fairways and thick rough is precisely what makes it so highly regarded, but all it is is the whim of the current powers-that-be. #10 used to have 20+ more yards of fairway width, all the way to the bunkers on the left and out to the tree line on the far right, where there were fewer bunkers and the point was to fly over them for the best angle. It'd be a much more dynamic hole with that restored.


The other incredible thing is: the same people will complain about unfairness if they choose the wrong strategy and wind up with the intended corresponding bad result. But then they don't say a word when they hit multiple long and straight drives that would be among their best of the year on 99% of other courses, but just trickle into the rough on Black. People should be angry, not impressed.


I'll still be out there every weekend, though. Can't beat the value! 

[Matthew Rose]

Like most people I'd obviously change Augusta a bit. Some restorative stuff, but a few back tees.

- Eliminate second cut
- Move fairway bunker on #2 back to inside of dogleg
- Replace four-bunker cluster on #3 with one single MacKenzie-ish looking one
- Shorten #7 to 380-390 yards and cut down the new trees
- Find a way to shift the putting green to allow for a 520 yard tee on #10
- Lengthen #16 to 200 yards so players are hitting 5-6-7 irons again instead of 9s.
- Find a way to make #17 more interesting.

I'd also love to see the creek restored on #6 as I think it would look cool, but I suspect I'd be thrown out of the clubhouse.

[Sean_A]

I’d change every hole on Black if we were talking about mowing lines.

While it might be a maintenance issue, I'm still interested in the detail of what you're getting at, specifically on...

2, 5, 9, 12, 15... ?

To name but a few, VK. TOC 9

F.

Great minds...
Ciao

Also, I see where #9 TOC had its own thread of contention, as I never played but studied from afar and from those who have...doesn't that hole (as many of the holes) take on a different consideration as the winds get up?  Isn't effective width changed with regards to Boase's and End Hole? If so, isn't it the green itself the thing that is drawing ire? What would you do to it?

I would make the hole a par 3 for championship play and a 4 for normal play...so probably knock off 75 or so yards.  That frees up what can be done in terms of creating more interest for the daily tee drive.  Plus, greens which run-away from play are best utilized on long approaches...and the par 3 would be long while still offering hacks a go in the right conditions.  Then I would consult an archie.

Ally...the 9th has been tinkered with fairly recently because folks know the hole is less than satisfactory.

Ciao 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Yes Sean - I was quite vocal at the time disagreeing with the premise behind any changes at TOC.

[Tim Gallant]

12 at North Berwick
Remove the 4 fairway bunkers on the left and add one on the right side about 20 yards past the current one. You want to take on the two fairway bunkers to have a good angle past the two bunkers on the left of the green.

Matthew,

The better angle to approach the 12th from is the left, not the right. I agree that they need to remove at least two of the bunkers on the left, but they also need to remove the bunker on the right, not add another. As someone who usually tries to avoid the left at all costs (because the rough is too penal to reach the green), I can tell you that the angle from the right is horrid. You have to avoid the bunker right, which is treacherous, and the green is running away from you. Often downwind, it requires a knockdown or bump and run. The bunker on the fairway right serves little purpose other than to punish those who will already be punished by the angle.

[Tim Gallant]

To name but a few, VK. TOC 9, ANGC 10, CPC 1 & 18.
But I’m just an opinion with an asshole. Whoops, that’s an.. well, you get the idea.

F.

What are your thoughts regarding ANGC 10?... Sven's excellent photo archive on the 1st page shows some interesting bunker/green  presentations (even post 1937 move)...is one of those what you're thinking on this one?


cheers   vk

I am interested in Marty’s thoughts on ANGC 10 as well as I’ve always really liked the hole and think it flows well with the holes both before and after.

Gents,
I just think it’s such a shame that one of The Good Doctor’s most strategic, artistic bunkers has been reduced to mere eye candy with the changes to 10. It clearly plays no part in player’s thoughts anymore and now just looks like a museum piece to me.
Cheers,
F.

Martin,


Wait a few years. That bunker is PERFECTLY placed now to catch drives that will be too long. No need to lengthen the hole. That bunker will ensure that players never try to hit it farther than they currently hit it.

[jeffwarne]

Like most people I'd obviously change Augusta a bit. Some restorative stuff, but a few back tees.

- Eliminate second cut
- Move fairway bunker on #2 back to inside of dogleg
- Replace four-bunker cluster on #3 with one single MacKenzie-ish looking one
- Shorten #7 to 380-390 yards and cut down the new trees
- Find a way to shift the putting green to allow for a 520 yard tee on #10
- Lengthen #16 to 200 yards so players are hitting 5-6-7 irons again instead of 9s.
- Find a way to make #17 more interesting.

I'd also love to see the creek restored on #6 as I think it would look cool, but I suspect I'd be thrown out of the clubhouse.

Good ideas all


Interestingly, number 16 often played at 190 in the 60's -early 80's to the back left or right pin on the final day.
In fact in the 68 video I think it is listed at 184

[Jim Nugent]

Like most people I'd obviously change Augusta a bit. Some restorative stuff, but a few back tees.

- Eliminate second cut
- Move fairway bunker on #2 back to inside of dogleg
- Replace four-bunker cluster on #3 with one single MacKenzie-ish looking one
- Shorten #7 to 380-390 yards and cut down the new trees
- Find a way to shift the putting green to allow for a 520 yard tee on #10
- Lengthen #16 to 200 yards so players are hitting 5-6-7 irons again instead of 9s.
- Find a way to make #17 more interesting.

I'd also love to see the creek restored on #6 as I think it would look cool, but I suspect I'd be thrown out of the clubhouse.

Good ideas all


Interestingly, number 16 often played at 190 in the 60's -early 80's to the back left or right pin on the final day.
In fact in the 68 video I think it is listed at 184

My memory is that Jack hit 5 iron there in 1986, and maybe even 1975, the year he beat out Miller and Weiskopf. 

[V. Kmetz]

Like most people I'd obviously change Augusta a bit. Some restorative stuff, but a few back tees.

- Eliminate second cut
- Move fairway bunker on #2 back to inside of dogleg
- Replace four-bunker cluster on #3 with one single MacKenzie-ish looking one
- Shorten #7 to 380-390 yards and cut down the new trees
- Find a way to shift the putting green to allow for a 520 yard tee on #10
- Lengthen #16 to 200 yards so players are hitting 5-6-7 irons again instead of 9s.
- Find a way to make #17 more interesting.

I'd also love to see the creek restored on #6 as I think it would look cool, but I suspect I'd be thrown out of the clubhouse.

Good ideas all

Interestingly, number 16 often played at 190 in the 60's -early 80's to the back left or right pin on the final day.
In fact in the 68 video I think it is listed at 184

My critique of #16 is the Sunday pin/tee they've locked into for 30+ years, same with #s 14 and 18.


I too find agreement with most of Matt's notes,  except for 7 and 10 -


On 7, I am one of those Luddites who wish a return to a 360 hole and a bunker-less green with a Valley of Sin. I think that would be my GCA wet dream, to be in charge of that green complex re-design.


On 10, I don't think it would play any more demanding from a longer distance... as they get longer and longer, I see more and more balls now blowing through the right side. In so noticing, I can say I would like that tee to be moved even more left, so that they really have to hook it to get the benefit of the pocket slope.


cheers  vk

[Peter Flory]

Cypress #18....pull all the trees on the right and stagger some bunkers up the hill.

That actually could be a very good finisher with a little room to maneuver added. 


I'm not a tree hugger, but I understand that ripping out trees that are older than America could have some opposition. 

[Kalen Braley]

I was thinking they should use a blind principle's nose bunker on 10 instead of restoring it on 11.


 Not very big, maybe 2-3 yards in diameter.  But put it right in the middle of that landing area on 10 where they get that speed boost.  More than likely they could still avoid it, but it would be the mental thing knowing if they landed in it, it would be an almost guaranteed bogey....

[Wayne_Kozun]

On 10, I don't think it would play any more demanding from a longer distance... as they get longer and longer, I see more and more balls now blowing through the right side. In so noticing, I can say I would like that tee to be moved even more left, so that they really have to hook it to get the benefit of the pocket slope.

Or slice it if you are a lefty which ANGC appears to favour as six of the last fifteen champions have been lefties (Weir, PMx3, Bubbax2).

[John McCarthy]

#8 Butler National.  I would cut out the trees on the left almost completely, leave a thin line.  Get rid of the bunker.

[Matthew Rose]

Interestingly, number 16 often played at 190 in the 60's -early 80's to the back left or right pin on the final day.
In fact in the 68 video I think it is listed at 184

I've noticed that the official yardages all got a lot shorter at one point.... I don't know if they had less accurate measurements in place at one time, but I remember my original World Atlas of Golf from the 70s had several holes listed at longer yardages than they did in the 80s. #15 was 520 and dropped to 500, #13 was 485, then 475, then 465. #4 was 220 and then 205; #16 was 190 and then 170.

[Rich Goodale]

I've said this before on this forum, but I'd chainsaw the $250k tree on the 18th at Pebble and while I was at it I'd take the chainsaw to Cypress and clear out the 17th, and then retire it.  The CP 18th is fine as it is, IMHO.