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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
When a green is shelved into a side slope or into a hiiside is it preferable to have the bunkering above or below the green*?
Which is your preference and why?
And would you tilt the green according and how?

Atb


* generalising somewhat as variety is nice.



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Bunkering above or below a green shelved into a side slope or hillside?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2017, 11:15:21 AM »
A lot of times you will see bunkering on the high side as a means to steer the drainage from above around the green, without an obvious swale.  Swales are made way up high to steer the water around the bunkers, and then the bunkers themselves catch any water that would otherwise drain across the green.

Jack Carney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkering above or below a green shelved into a side slope or hillside?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2017, 11:33:39 AM »
Not thinking about the practical side suggested by Tom, I would prefer below the green for a shorter shot for definition and interest. Above on a longer shot to give players a better opportunity. i would prefer a tilt that follows the general ground direction for a more natural play and feel.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkering above or below a green shelved into a side slope or hillside?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2017, 01:17:05 PM »

Jack,


TD is right about the practical concerns. Even without a bunker, I would build a mound with the diversion swale above it. You never want to take care of uphill drainage close to the green.  Sometimes, routing the cart path to the high side allows it to act as the drainage swale.


As to the original ?, I have always preferred them above the green, for visibility.  Since so few golfers hit over the green, they are usually mostly cosmetic.  That said, I recall playing my Cowboys GC with Notah Begay III, who went nuts at the idea of a downhill lie to a green falling away, saying it was a really hard shot he didn't care for in his designs.


Which brings me to your last point, it is as close to a cardinal rule as you can get - greens ought to tip to the downhill side, which sets up the situation above.  Greens that drain back into the hill always look awkwardly perched.  Even greens with minimal cross slope (assuming the hill is more on the side than back) can look perched. I often reserve my biggest cross slope (maybe 2.25%) for such greens.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkering above or below a green shelved into a side slope or hillside?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2017, 01:28:47 PM »
Thanks for these comments.
The bunker positioning and steerage of drainage on the uphill side seems pretty key. Tilt of green as well.

Presumable if you mow the grass short on the side below the green, the opposite side to the bunker, you can get shots running away down the slope and away from the green as well. I guess more land and mowing is need but I presume you then get two difficult to play from situations, ie a downhill bunker shot to an away sloping green and an uphill pitch from a tight lie.
Atb

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkering above or below a green shelved into a side slope or hillside?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2017, 10:08:52 PM »
Thomas,
We literally just built a bunker as Tom described at a course outside Philadelphia called Brookside CC.  The bunker is located greenside on the right front third of the green and extends well in front along that side.  It is cut into the hillside and we divert most of the water coming off the hill around the bunker.  What was there previously was a mess. 


By the way, this is a good example of a long range Master Plan.  We have been working away at it as club finances permit.  We did the plan back in 2005  :o

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom D and Jeff B have good points. There is not really a one size fits all rule for this. I generally prefer bunkering below as this reinforces the need to overcome the uphill gradient.

Mark Fine and I had this solution when we restored the c. 1921 Hunter-Watson Berkeley CC (changed to Mira Vista and now back to the original name). The original bunker went way uphill (left) and also cascaded down...it was much larger. Our decision was to refine it and yet keep it deceivingly short of the green by a we bit.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
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