Difficult to Read Greens

[Ira Fishman]

How much value do you put on difficult to read greens when assessing a course?


The context for the question is that we just had the pleasure of making our first trip to Bandon plus we played Pasatiempo when we were in Bay Area.  Old Mac was the most fun; Bandon Dunes the least compelling (although still very good).  I could throw a small blanket over Pasa, Bandon Trails, and Pacific in terms of picking a favorite although I lean toward Pasa despite the absence of scale and scenery relative to the other two.


However, Pacific really stood out in terms of the challenge of reading greens.  GCA's own Sven was looping for us on all four courses (a most excellent companion with which to spend the trip and to accelerate one learning the courses).  He can attest to my utter mediocrity as a golfer, but would concur, I think, that I can read greens pretty well.  But not so at Pacific where not only did I miss the size of the break consistently, but on many of the holes the direction of the break to begin with.


The subtlety, deception, or whatever term one wants to use really added to my appreciation of the course.  Do others put a high value on difficult to read greens?


Ira

[Blake Conant]

I typically read greens by figuring out the surface drainage.  When it's revealed that the shaper/designer diverted the water in a clever or unexpected way (consequently making a putt break differently than it appears) I think more highly of it.

[Dan Herrmann]

Funny story - the first time I played Schuylkill CC in Pennsylvania -- I think I misread every putt that day.


I think that green reading is a terribly unappreciated skill to be tested by a golf course.

[Kalen Braley]

In my experience, reading greens is mostly an art....until you play them enough to learn which way the ball goes.


P.S.  I know its cliche, but the best visual for me when playing new greens is the proverbial large bucket being dumped on the green from above and visualizing how it would drain.

[Thomas Dai]

A couple of other factors that can add to the subtlety and deception include wind speed and direction plus surface moisture.
atb

[Tim Gallant]

Ira,


Interesting as I was thinking about this after a recent round at Notts GC. On the 17th, as you approach play there is a high wing on the left. I was behind the cup which was middle right and conventional wisdom would say that the break would fall off the wing. Not so! Before I hit my putt, my host (a GCAer) asked where I was aimed. When I said 2 cups outside right, he corrected me to a cup outside left. I made the putt and couldn't help but laugh. It was a putt I would have missed by 3 cups had it not been for local knowledge. The deception of the wing threw my perception of the line way off.


Thanks James for the kind read

[Joe Hancock]

I typically read greens by figuring out the surface drainage.  When it's revealed that the shaper/designer diverted the water in a clever or unexpected way (consequently making a putt break differently than it appears) I think more highly of it.

I concur fully, and will add that I find the surrounding landscape and vistas to be as integral to the deception/ ability to read a green, as the green surface itself.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm happy you got the chance for such a terrific trip, Ira.
Yes, for me difficult to read greens imply/require the kind of "local knowledge" and "benefit of multiple plays" that I enjoy most and think best.
There is fun/challenge/intrigued in being on the putting surface and trying to "see" the right line. There is much less fun/intrigued for me in managing to hit a good drive on what I've determined is the best line only to "discover" a few moments later that taking on the fairway hazard didn't lead to a better angle or shorter approach, but to nothing in particular at all.
Not sure why, but the first kind of "hmm, I learned something" is enjoyable, while the second kind isn't. Maybe because in the former case I myself missed the seeing (but might have seen rightly, even on a first play) while in the latter case the architect tried to purposely make sure I didn't see/choose the right line.
Also, I think in the former case, those greens will always remain tricky to read, while with the latter the trick is exposed and the jig is up after one play.
Peter

[Jim_Kennedy]

You don't have much of a golf course if the greens are easy to read.

[Jerry Kluger]

The problem today is that so many clubs are looking for high green speeds which means you are looking at flatter putting surfaces which aren't as difficult to read with the speed becoming the biggest challenge. Almost everyone I have ever spoken to about golf in the UK and Ireland found the greens to be fun and challenging yet more often than not they would never accept those slower speeds and greater contours at their home course.

[Tim Gavrich]

There are plenty of sets of greens that I find difficult to read and love. Yale's greens stick out as being of this sort.


There are also plenty of sets of greens that I find difficult to read but those greens are mostly flat and boring. There are any number of course with Bermuda grass that I've seen about which I'd say this. I get fooled by my home course's greens all the time but no one would rank them among the best around, because they're not very dynamic.


Which is to say that I'm not huge on difficulty of reads as a necessarily reliable indicator of greatness.

[JESII]

Are we talking about greens that have a lot going on? Or greens that are filled with micro-movements that prove really difficult to see?

[Ira Fishman]

Jim,


Great question.  Pacific Dunes seemed to have a bit of both which is what intrigued me.  Old Mac has huge greens with huge contours that make putting fun (and difficult), but the greens not generally that hard to read.  I think Joe's point above resonates; a good part of the "deception" may derive from the green setting and optics around the green as opposed to the breaks on the greens themselves.  For example, I found assessing up, down, or flat a challenge in itself because hard to get a good orientation.


Ira

[Kalen Braley]

I find the most difficult greens to read are ones that look flattish with subtle slope, but where the course is built into a hilly/terrain.


One such course north of here really fooled me the first time playing. I would read 6 or so inches of break, yet would move 3-4 feet.  A couple of greens even looked downhill but actually played uphill.  Subtle stuff.

[Carl Johnson]

I'd put it this way.  Difficult to read greens.  No.  Challenging to read greens.  Yes.

[Jim Lipstate]

Having played Pacific several times I concur that I basically had no clue as to the breaks on the greens. I had to lean on my caddie to point the way. In trying to figure why I could not pick out the breaks one thing that stood out to me was the Camo effect of the fescue in the greens. Really unique surfaces far different than the bermuda greens back home in the deep South. I think the mottled appearance of the greens on Bandon and Pacific in particular helped to conceal the contours. Did not have nearly as much problem when playing Old Mac.

[Pete_Pittock]

For me, the hardest set of greens to read was Lakota Canton (CO). I could never get a feeling of what was level. On that course, that may have been nowhere. Most of the caddies I have had at Bandon were excellent, except one who became a bag carrier after an epic misread on the 1st green at Pacific.   


I generally have more trouble with micro-breaks than macro-breaks.  Multiple micro-breaks - just play at the hole

[Mark Smolens]

On my first trip to Pinehurst my buddy Jay and I got an older caddy named Rush. 60+ years old, could barely carry two bags. Get to 2nd hole and my ball is on the left side of the green with a middle pin, about 45'. Rush is at the front of the green, looks over at me and says "2 balls to the left." I've already read the putt and have it going 2 balls to the right! I sort of give him a look, like why aren't you coming over here to read this thing? He snorts and says "man, I been readin' these greens for 43 years it's 2 balls to the left."


Well I can't do it. I can't put itt outside right when my brain tells me it breaks the other way. So I hit it right at the hole, perfect speed, perfect roll. Of course it breaks 2 balls to the left. Spent next 16 holes laughing at myself and my inability to read those greens -- one of my most enjoyable rounds of golf ever.