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Tim Gavrich

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Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2017, 09:46:14 AM »
The Dunes Golf & Beach Club in Myrtle Beach falls under this category. Rees Jones did some work to it a couple years ago (mostly adding some tees), but I'd say it was more restorative in nature.


Tanglewood Park in NC is probably in this category, too.


How are the courses at Inverrary near Ft. Lauderdale? I've thought about driving down from Vero Beach to play them sometime.


I may get ridiculed for this, but I think the long runway tees are really cool-looking
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John Foley

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Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2017, 10:26:25 AM »
Bristol Harbour SE of Rochester NY outside Canandaigua is RTJ from 1972. Pretty sure it was Rees as lead on the project. As far as I know it's been untouched other than some drainage work. Solid golf w some tough greens.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2017, 11:02:28 AM »
Pauma Valley had extensive flood damage.  I am not sure of the year, sometime between 1965 and 1980.  Several holes were rebuilt and altered and not for the better.  I have played the original and the altered.


For studying RTJ in the 1960s, Valencia Country Club is pretty good.  I haven't followed it much, but due to financial difficulties I suspect little has changed there.  Maybe some green contouring changes, but little else.  They have reversed nines but not changed holes.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2017, 06:39:41 PM »
I haven't played there in almost 20 years, but the aerials would indicate that Eisenhower Blue (at the Air Force Academy) is pretty much untouched. Assuming it hadn't been changed before I got there, which seems unlikely. It is classic RTJ all the way.


Matthew,


I haven't been back since graduating (11 years ago).  The pond left of the green on #1 was added when I was there.  Also there were plans to completely redo the greens to include changes in contours.  #9 was one I remember talks on flattening.  Haven't looked at an aerial of the place in quite some time and multiple multiple new practice areas are in place as well as construction of a new building where the putting green used to be.  I don't figure routing or placements of greens have changed.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2017, 07:07:50 PM »
I haven't played there in almost 20 years, but the aerials would indicate that Eisenhower Blue (at the Air Force Academy) is pretty much untouched. Assuming it hadn't been changed before I got there, which seems unlikely. It is classic RTJ all the way.


Matthew,


I haven't been back since graduating (11 years ago). 


Joe,


See my email, there are rumblings of a GCA 2018 Navy @ Air Force football/golf weekend.


#GoNavyBeatAirForce


Update - Matthew, send me an email...
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 07:12:08 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2017, 07:18:05 PM »
One of the really great quotes I have ever read about the golf courses designed by Robert Trent Jones, Sr. came from, I believe, Tom Doak when he referred to RTJ's style as "The Howard Johnson school of architecture."


One of the great lines ever (mostly because it's true :) )



I think I stole that line (or at least the idea) from Herbert Warren Wind, though I do not have a citation.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2017, 02:13:31 PM »
I haven't played there in almost 20 years, but the aerials would indicate that Eisenhower Blue (at the Air Force Academy) is pretty much untouched. Assuming it hadn't been changed before I got there, which seems unlikely. It is classic RTJ all the way.


Matthew,


I haven't been back since graduating (11 years ago).  The pond left of the green on #1 was added when I was there.  Also there were plans to completely redo the greens to include changes in contours.  #9 was one I remember talks on flattening.  Haven't looked at an aerial of the place in quite some time and multiple multiple new practice areas are in place as well as construction of a new building where the putting green used to be.  I don't figure routing or placements of greens have changed.


What a strange addition that pond is. I'll never understand why anyone wants to build a water hazard the size of a bunker. But I suppose it makes the big hitter back off!


The green changes are both a shame and, to my mind, largely pointless. It wasn't the slope in the greens that made them tough, it was trying to figure out how much break to factor in off the slope of the mountain. Too bad.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2017, 05:06:35 PM »
I believe that the original 18 holes at Otter Creek in Columbus, Indiana is pretty well untouched.  Though perhaps not his RTJ's finest work, it is representative of his style during that era.  My guess is that the course will continue to be maintained as it originally was, primarily because of its direct connection to the other important works of modernist architecture within the city.


Otter was my first thought. I think it's a fine piece of work. Just don't get caught playing Rees's East nine!

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2017, 05:50:37 PM »


I would recommend Crag Burn in Buffalo.
Other than a few very minor changes to the 8th and 9th, it's pretty much all there.


It was built in 1969 and he was definitely on site for this one.


Very understated compared to other works, sits nicely on a gentle site.


photo courtesy of Buffalo Golfer
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 05:53:39 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

John Blain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2017, 06:31:48 PM »
RTJ, Sr. told a golf professional friend of mine that Crag Burn was his personal favorite among all the courses he ever built.


Crag Burn is pretty much in just about everyone's Top 5 in upstate New York.


-John

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2017, 07:11:07 PM »
+1 on Valencia CC. I also dont think Spyglass Hill has ever been renovated but alot of iceplant has died on the ocean holes.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2017, 08:05:14 PM »
There has been a recent remodeling of the Goldenhorshoe in Williamsburg, havent't played it yet.  Has anyone?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2017, 12:34:04 PM »
Thanks for the updates on Stockley Park. Obviously not the place it once was. Despite Spangles, delete it from the suggestion bank. Are there any RTJ courses not in the USA that deserve consideration? He built all over the world.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2017, 07:45:36 PM »
Thanks for the updates on Stockley Park. Obviously not the place it once was. Despite Spangles, delete it from the suggestion bank. Are there any RTJ courses not in the USA that deserve consideration? He built all over the world.


1) When are we playing golf again?


2) That is a great question. I have never played Ballybunion Old, and I know I will love it. That said, the "controversy" that surrounds "Ballybunion - The Cashen" is very intriguing to me. I have no doubt that The Old is the superior course, but the fact that my Irish friends/ancestry :) decided to hire RTJ over many local and European architects is intriguing to me. In 1984 when The Cashen opened, I graduated from college in The States and I made the obligatory "Post-College" tour to Europe. It was a powerful trip and the last thing I wanted to see was a McDonalds (fast food). Yet, they were all over the cities of Europe.


RTJ and maybe Pete Dye can be argued as the "Most American" architects. This forum take a good number of shots at both, but RTJ seems to be the one with the worldwide legacy. Was that timing or talent?


I have played a Jack Nicklaus course in England, and dammit, I liked it :)
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2017, 05:09:23 AM »
Sweeney

The Cashen is a course which is easy to like because its on a stunning property and offers a lot of cool shots.  If you play it on a fine day with little care about the outcome other than the 19th...The Cashen can be a very enjoyable experience.  But the course has been touched...though I don't know to what degree.  Regardless, I would go back.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 05:12:09 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2017, 12:54:41 PM »
Sweeney

The Cashen is a course which is easy to like because its on a stunning property and offers a lot of cool shots.  If you play it on a fine day with little care about the outcome other than the 19th...The Cashen can be a very enjoyable experience.  But the course has been touched...though I don't know to what degree.  Regardless, I would go back.

Ciao


Cashen has been massively altered although I'm not that familiar with the specifics.


I quite liked Adare which is the only other RTJ Irish design - was probably the best inland course on the isle.


But it's just undergone a massive redesign / renovation by Tom Fazio / Marzolf. To what end I don't really know. JP intends to buy the Ryder Cup.

Ed Homsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2017, 09:50:39 PM »
Midvale Country Club in greater Rochester, NY is purported to be RTJ's first 18 hole course.  It opened in 1931.  Their website reports that 40-50 bunkers were removed at one point in time, but that the course remains essentially the same as designed by RTJ. 


I have not played the course, but spent a day there on a course-rating team, and found some very interesting golf holes.  Smallish greens, and definitely a parkland course with tree-lined corridors. 


Not a course that gets a lot of attentjion in the Rochester area.

Martin Lehmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2017, 08:44:59 AM »
As far as I know, Fox Hollow GC, allegedly his last design close to Tampa, Florida, is untouched. It's a resort course, but nevertheless a joy to play with a lot of fine, strategic holes.

Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2017, 04:43:26 PM »



Not at all well known, likely because it is well off the beaten track is Rivershore Golf Club just outside Kamloops, B.C. I recall it was built in the 60's and although I have only played it once about 20 years ago, I am pretty sure it has not been altered. Kamloops is in the same temperate range as Sagebrush so it can play very firm and fast.


I recall the course was fun to play although a portion of the course goes in and around a subdivision. Not worth a special trip but if you are in the area it is not bad at all!

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2017, 11:48:43 AM »
The Golden Horseshoe is pretty much untouched.


Hmm, I am not so sure about that as they put in new greens and new bunkers in the past year. Yes, the routing is the same but the course is not "untouched" as Rees Jones was involved.

David Cronheim

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Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2017, 03:37:29 PM »
The RTJ at Cornell is really untouched except for some mowing lines. I spent 7 years up there as an undergrad and in law school, so I had a chance to play it a lot before I really got interested in golf course architecture. I very much enjoyed it as an undergrad, but when I went back in June for my 10th reunion I was appalled by the planted pine trees, huge expanses of mown rough (keeps play moving I guess with so many students), and bizarre mowing lines. What had remained the same for me was my impression that if you hadn't known RTJ was the architect, the only thing that would've given you a hint were the aircraft carrier tees.


The course has several holes I'd consider to be outstanding (#2 - a redanlike par 3 over a deep valley, long par 4's at #3 and #4 and one of his most interesting green complexes at the punchbowl #14). It's a shame that Cornell doesn't take more pride in presenting a famous alum's work as a showpiece. If a decent restoration specialist ever got his hands on it, it could be quite good.


All of that begs the question that in this era of ripping out all the work from the 1960's, has anyone ever truly "restored" one of those courses that has been subsequently altered. I've always thought that mowing lines and terrible tree plantings often made some RTJ and Dick Wilson courses worse than they would've been otherwise. All of that is really cosmetic, though.
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Sinclair Eaddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2017, 10:11:10 PM »
I have played Old Warson many times thanks to a good friend who is a member. Yes the course is pretty much classic Trent Jones. The thing that makes Old Warson special other than being a top notch club experience is that the club has invested heavily in on course improvements without changing the actual design. The bridges, cart paths and water features (pond and streams) have all been updated and complement the existing course rather than changing the design in any way. Couple that with the consistency of the immaculate zoysia fairways and you have a very classy and sporty layout. I have played Bellerive on several occasions-- I imagine Bellerive must have looked liked OW before they added 800 yards and made the bunkering extremely penal with depth. I'm used to playing courses averaging 6500-6800 yards. Several times playing Bellerive I turned around and marveled at the champ back tees in many cases 100 yards behind me.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2017, 10:16:51 PM »
I believe Carolina Trace in Sanford, NC is an RTJ and while it has been restored I believe that much of it is still true to the original. Two very severe drop shot par 3s, big bunkering, runway tees, a cape par 5 somewhat reminiscent of the Dunes.

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2017, 02:04:29 PM »



I played Meadow Brook recently and it seems they had undergone a process of restoration as some of the bunkers were rebuilt, green pads were well thought out and fairways still had the visible remnants of expansion.