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A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If I were a better ball striker, I would have won the PGA
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2017, 08:30:10 PM »
Exactly.  Jack has said repeatedly that he never went all out and rarely pressed for distance.  Today's pros are all swinging at much closer to their max speeds, especially with their irons.  They are just all around better athletes and have not had to win much with guile or finesse, especially around the greens.


Looking at videos of Jack in his younger days-he absolutely lashed at it.Pretty athletic looking.
he might call that 90% and he may well have had an extra gear (he used to say when he was REALLY going to crush it he went even slower-to be sure really coiled)


One thing's for sure-Jack definitely did not go after his irons-his listed yardage for his 4 iron was 185(granted it was about the loft of today's 5.5 iron)


As far as Jack hitting a one iron, today's 3 iron is the same length and loft so that I'm confident today's players could hit them also.(many of these guys hit blades anyway-though generally not in their 3 irons)


Jack's balls were terrible and he regularly used to break inserts in his twenties.

Jeff,
A few weeks back, I heard one of the announcers (Kostis?  Bones?  Not sure...) talk about Davis Love, who was, I believe, the last guy to use a persimmon driver in a Tour event.  Anyway, whomever this was said that while Love was always one of the longest drivers, he was one or two irons SHORTER than most other players because his dad had taught him to play shots and curve the ball. 

I think it was much the same with Nicklaus, and I remember him the same way you do with a driver; going after it!  In fact, in "Golf My Way", Nicklaus says that Grout told him to hit the ball as far as he could, and they'd figure out "straight" later.  It seems that was a reasonably successful formula.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If I were a better ball striker, I would have won the PGA
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2017, 09:13:31 PM »
He did say it, Tom, and did play that way - and everyone he played against knew that he always had extra power/distance in reserve.
I usually and naturally defer to Jeff W in all matters related to playing the game, but here he's talking total nonsense.
JN had to beat the same size field and the same kind of field that Justin Thomas had to beat today -- and just like in Jack's day, most of those in the field of a major championship beat themselves. (Q: in 30 years, how many of today's golfers will be remembered at all, let alone held in the same esteem as, say, Tom Watson, Lee Trevino, and Gary Player?  I tell you how many - 3, just like we only remember those 3 names amongst Jack's competitors and then claim that he didn't play against strong fields.) 
I don't know what major championships Jeff's been watching over the last 10-15 years, but 4 68s sure seem good enough to have won a whole lot of them. Oh, btw - ask Ben Crenshaw if he or anyone else on tour at the time could hit JN's 1 iron - and I don't mean hit it as well as Jack, I mean hit it at all!
Anyway - this whole line of debate (including my own post) is idiotic. Every generation has its rare and true greats - and the rarest and truest greats transcend their time. Bobby Orr and Wayne Gretzky did; Willie Mays and Ted Williams did; and Jack (and Tiger) certainly did. I'll wait to see who amongst today's best golfers might transcend their era. You'll excuse me if in the meantime I don't denigrate the guy who won 18 major championship and who was in the mix for dozens more, almost constantly and over almost 40 years!
And btw (2) - all this talk about Jack beating weaker fields in his era really is annoying. Doesn't anyone remember 1998? That wasn't Jack's era - that was a later (and presumably by Jeff's way of thinking) 'better' era for strengths of field.  And what does JN do but finish T6 in the Masters, just 4 shots off the winning score -- at 58 years old! and playing on at least one if not two recently installed artificial hips! Oh yeah, he beat nobody -- except that among those finishing *behind* him were: Ernie Els, Phil Mickelson, Colin Montgomerie, Tiger Woods, JM Olazabal, D Love, and B Langer.     
Peter


Peter,
I know we've all gone over this before..and of course it's just MHO-but I have seen both eras live and up close-especially at Augusta in 44 straight years of attending live-but also at various events and in my time spent working at Doral.
And to be honest, I would far rather watch Lee Trevino play shots then the talented current crop bomb and gouge. But that's what is rewarded on the goofy setups and architorture they play every week.


The fact that Jack finished 6th at Augusta in 1998 doesn't say anything except how great a player he was for a long time-especially on familiar ground, and that he had great experience and knowledge at Augusta. Snead and Hogan had similar runs and Bernhard as well. It happens to great players (especially if they are lifetime exempt)as Watson demonstrated in the Open Championship


First of all, Jack is the greatest ever-period.
That said, Jack had a very average wedge game-until later in his career.
None of these young players has an average wedge game.


It's often said that he had the most competition based on all the multiple major winners he had to beat.
They were all great players....but..if a smaller % of the field is capable of winning....more multiple major winners emerge.(and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as people say Jack was winning in an era of multiple major winners)
half the fields were club pros in the 50's and 60's and even early 70's.
There are currently 200+ PGATour pros that could win and another 150 web,com that could win as well-to say nothing of the talent on the Euro and overseas Tours---Prior to Seve, how many Euro Pros could win a major besides Jacklin and Thompson?(not Euro but a winner there)---now many, many of their players could win a major.
Look at Chris Stroud-202nd in the world contending in a major.


We have a staff event with 12 pros every year. I've won it four times, but several others have multiple wins as well. Does that make us great? No it's a small field-with even less that can win-of course there will be multiple winners-look at your local club championship.
Can we at least admit that Tom Morris was beating weak fields with small amounts of players that could actually win.
It's evolved progressively since then.
Jack faced far greater depth than Hogan, who faced far greater depth than Jones, who faced far greater depth than the Great Triumvirate


The current crop of players is the best depth ever, and that's why the last 12 majors have been won by players who had none prior to 2015.
Golf is growing worldwide and the competition is greater than ever.
It will be quite difficult for anyone to amass as many as Jack or Tiger-ironically, in part because as this thread points out-players are flat out going for it almost all the time and know that playing safe might allow them to finish consistently high, but not win as often.
Being the smartest player may NOT be an advantage as it may curb the boldness needed to win.
Sadly, with modern equipment, the courses and setups required to get these players to manage their games ,are courses none of us would EVER enjoy playing.


Of course if we could rein in equipment hitting the fairway would be more important as play from the rough with something besides a wedge MIGHT convince the players to manage their tee play a bit.


But so far, Jack is still the best-with an incredible run by Tiger.
and you are 100% right that we will only remember 3 players from each era-(let's go with 4 because Casper was pretty dam%& good)
But if all 12 billion of the world's future population takes up the game, the depth will be even greater and even more better players will emerge.


Of course the counter arguement could be that with so many multiple major winners in Jack's era (from weaker fields) he faced players less likely to choke because they were more used to being in the hunt than the current grip it and rip it one time wonder crowd.


That's precisely why I hate the modern equipment race-especially lately as it seems every week anoth 61 is commonplace-it would be nice for scoring records to be not so suddenly eclipsed and some(slight) comparisons could be drawn.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 09:34:40 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: If I were a better ball striker, I would have won the PGA
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2017, 09:39:07 PM »
Jeff - thanks for that very good response. There are no heroes like the heroes we had in childhood, and so I look at JN (and Bobby Orr) through that kind of lens -- but maybe that lens is a little faulty! :)
(Thanks too for adding Billy Casper - the very name I thought about adding but didn't).
You're probably right about the general level of play getting progressively better as more and more youngsters from all around the world become pros; being the best student in a one-room schoolhouse isn't the same as being the best student at Oxford.
But you're a tournament golfer, and it must be true (isn't it?) that *winning* isn't only about talent, ie that some tournament players have/learn the knack of winning and winning consistently and winning the biggest tournaments, while others never do. And in that context, it's clear that JN is the greatest *winner* in golfing history. I hope we're both around in 3O or 40 years to see which of today's (highly talented) golfers proved to have that same knack
Peter




Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If I were a better ball striker, I would have won the PGA
« Reply #53 on: August 15, 2017, 01:33:15 AM »


AG,


the difference in firmness between the green and the rest is a maintenance issue not weather as you seem to push. Regardless of this however it led to probably the most boring spectacle golf has ever witnessed.


Jon


I'm certain that the PGA and the staff would have liked for the course to be firmer and play faster; that often just isn't possible in this part of the world this time of the year.


AG,


you kind of prove my point as to what was wrong. The mindset is so focused on F&F that you, the USPGA and the QC maintenance staff lost sight of the bigger picture. The course should have a homogenous playing characteristic and it is great if that is F&F. But as you point out, if the fairways are soft because of all the rain then the greens need softening up a little as well. The way QC came across in the tournament did no one a favour least of all golf.


Jon

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If I were a better ball striker, I would have won the PGA
« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2017, 01:54:46 AM »
AG,

Gotta agree with Jon.
Inconsistent is not a good example to show as "world class".
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If I were a better ball striker, I would have won the PGA
« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2017, 07:26:19 AM »
It's a no-win situation, I suppose; if the greens had been soft and the players had thrown darts at flags with a winning score of -20, the complaints would still be coming, just with a different focus.

That said, I'll write this again:  I do NOT like the rock-hard, superfast Champion Bermuda greens that we saw at Quail Hollow, no matter what the fairway conditions are.  I've had the opportunity to play under more or less those conditions on greens several times, and I don't consider it to be much fun.  That doesn't mean it isn't useful to identify the best golfer, but that's another question.  But it's sort of silly golf that is unlike anything else I've seen, including bent grass running at similar speeds.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If I were a better ball striker, I would have won the PGA
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2017, 02:25:26 PM »

AG,


the problem with the QC set up is it absolutely eliminates any sort of judgement. It does not require skill to master it but instead the player relies on the luck of hopefully holding the green and when the ball rolls into the fringes its potluck with how the ball is sitting and thus the chance of controlling the shot. IMO The set up showed a complete lack of understanding of how to set up a course in order to give the players a golfing challenge and there was no reason for this other than fixating on firm greens. It is imperative for a good test that the greens and surrounds/approaches have the same general playing characteristics. Rock hard greens are fine if the rest of the course is set up for it.


Jon

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If I were a better ball striker, I would have won the PGA
« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2017, 06:52:31 PM »
Jon,
You're of course right-but that ship sailed here years ago.
Irrigated summer fairways are generally going to be soft here on inland courses-especially with rain.
We saw reasonable conditions at Erin Hills (given the weather) and many in the golf world freaked out because modern players, armed with modern equipment shot low scores on the softe greens and fairways.
The high score police are out at majors, and silly setups are the only way they will get them with this generation of player and equipment.With sub air they can get the greens back firm even if the fairways are still soft. Let's hope the answer is not sub aired fairways ;(
It would've been awesome to have seen baked out bermuda fairways in the PGA but that's unlikely to happen given the quest for agronomic perfection-I now see it all on links courses that don't get baked out due to irrigation during dry spells and as soon as it rains they are softer than ideal and softer than they would've been if allowed to get drier/stressed in the first place. i.e. conditions are more "consistent" and less variable-a pity.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 07:40:55 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: If I were a better ball striker, I would have won the PGA
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2017, 07:09:53 PM »
Several years ago now, Joe Hancock wrote and published an article (I think in Adam L's magazine) based on his long-term experience in achieving and maintaining firm, healthy, sustainable and low maintenance turf on the modest public course he owned at the time, all the while keeping it playable for -- and mitigating the complaints of -- a wide range and number of 'average golfers' who expected 'good conditions' for their very reasonable green fees. I don't remember the specifics, but I do remember thinking that Joe's was a sound but uncommon approach -- perhaps an uncommonly sound one is the way to describe it. But also: I travelled out to Michigan to visit Joe and play the course with him, and I still marvel at how really wonderful - but definitely not lush or manicured - the turf/conditions were...not just for a public course but for any course.
I wish Joe could post it here, or at  least summarize it.
Peter

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If I were a better ball striker, I would have won the PGA
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2017, 09:22:01 AM »
Guys, I don't know what else to say about the condition of Quail Hollow last week.  I think that some of you are assuming that soft fairways and heavy rough were a conscious decision by the maintenance staff; that is not really what is going on the southeastern US in August.

There was an inch and quarter of rain in Charlotte last Monday night.  The afternoon and evening storms had been going on before that, and they continued; it rained five of the seven days of tournament week, with the course being cleared on Friday afternoon.  There were heavy rains again Saturday night into Sunday morning; at my course in Chapel Hill (2 hours away to the east) we had casual water on the elevated tees of the driving range on Sunday morning, and carts were restricted to the cart paths.  In short, I'd be shocked if I were to find out that the fairways and/or rough at Quail Hollow had been irrigated any time in the last couple of weeks; there just isn't any reason.  Bermuda grass is growing literally 24 hours per day this time of year, and it's all the staff can do to keep up with mowing.

As to the greens, I understand the complaints about the difference between the rest of the course and the greens, all of which can be chalked up to subair.  I don't know if that's good or bad, but I DO know that soft greens are NOT what most here would like to see for a major championship.  Jon Wigget, I take your point about not being able to run up shots onto super-firm greens, I really do; I just don't know if softer greens are the answer to the difference, though.

So here's the bottom line, I think:  IF you believe that firm and fast is an absolute requirement for a major, then rule out the Southeastern US, except for MAYBE Pinehurst in the Sandhills (and even that is going to be iffy year-to-year.)  Firm and fast can't be achieved here in the summer, given the grasses, the climate, and the soil without a significant drought going on, and I don't think superintendents have yet figured out how to dial in a selective drought over their golf course.

BUT, at the risk of losing the forest for the trees, take another look at the leaderboard from last week.  Quail Hollow, for whatever it was or wasn't, did at least as good a job of rewarding the best players in the world as any of the other three majors did this particular year.  If THAT is the test of a course, then QH did ok.

"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If I were a better ball striker, I would have won the PGA
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2017, 10:48:07 AM »
I again thought I saw a great tournament, full of thrills and chills, birdies, eagles, double bogeys and more, risk, reward, strategy, tough greens (thanks AG for the explanation about Bermuda), on a course that rewarded bombers and shorter hitters alike.  The top players in the world, if they got out of position, could miss the green with a pitch or even chip shot.  If they got in position, they could make eagle.  It was a roller coaster ride, with 5 guys sharing the lead at one point the final round, and even some doubts about the three-stroke lead Thomas held on the 72nd hole. 

The course looked say too hard to me for everyday golfers.  For the world's best golfers, in a major tournament, I thought it performed great.   

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If I were a better ball striker, I would have won the PGA
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2017, 11:31:34 AM »
I've said it a few times over the years as have others.....


Almost any course (given it has decent length) can hold a tournament and keep scores down if it has just 3 things:


1)  Nasty rough
2)  Wet, soggy fairways
3)  Firm greens.


What happened last week shouldn't be a surprise to anyone on this website, its was the perfect storm of "maintenance melds"

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