Maintaining heavy rough ruins architecture

[Bill Brightly]

I agree that the roughs in the NE of the US are tough this spring. But Stonewall maintains it like this most of the season.
I just became frustrated now.

  The point is that courses that consistently maintain rough too penal lose their architectural value.

I don't disagree with you at all. But how roughs are maintained has a huge impact on a club's membership in one "sad but true" area: handicaps! More to the point, the handicaps of the single digits! If Stonewall (or any other club) cut the roughs to one and a half or two inches for an extended period of time, the single digits will hit far more greens and score much better. Their handicaps will drop. Then they will howl: "our handicaps don't travel!"


I love Stonewall and I agree that the courses there do not need penal rough. But the sad reality is that the powers that be at most clubs think tough rough is required to "protect the course." And those "powers" include a disproportionate number of single digit players: club members tend to bow to the better players. They don't give a damn about the course being fun for members. They just want a challenging test that allows their abilities to prevail!


But give them a bad lie in a sand hazard... then they'll howl that the bunkers are inconsistent!

[Mike_Trenham]

Mayday:


Stonewall has been cutting its fescue down a few times a season the past few years, to ankle height.  I can't  think any other local club that cuts thier fescue down as aggressively through the season.  I've played poorly there in August and not lost a ball (in the fescue).



You seem to have caught it at a time where it was not cut down. 


In the land of Penn's Woods unmaintained fescue just grows into a sea of oaks and maples and then there is little hope growing rough...

[Garland Bayley]

Not that I advocate heavy rough, especially too close to the fairway or too many water hazards but shouldn't there be a penalty for a severely wayward shot? There will be times when you have to take an extra stroke to chip back into a badly missed fairway.

Suppose a good drive of 250 yards gets you 100 yards from the center of the green in the center of the fairway.
A severely wayward shot of 250 yards and 50 yards from the center of the fairway will leave you a 115 yard shot to the center of the green, possibly over a bunker, and possibly not a receptive slope to the green. So you are penalized 15% and being out of position. Is this not enough? Or is it just a justification for bomb and gouge?

[Dan Herrmann]

We're across the street from Stonewall, and the rough has been an issue.   It isn't watered, and the only fertilizer it gets is grass clippings.   But it's very thick and requires frequent cutting, especially this year which has been cool and a bit wetter than normal.


Even worse, bermuda has made its way into some areas, and for a northerner, it's a pain to get out of.


It gets better if we get a hot/dry summer.


Fortunately, we have very wide fairways.  As my friend Bruce Cadenelli (our head greenkeeper) likes to tell me, "What's wrong - fairway not wide enough for you?" 


PS - There's a reason we're surrounded on 2 sides by farms.   It's a fantastic area to grow crops (and fescue).

[mike_malone]

There is no fairway wide enough for the average golfer. The entire game of golf is about the wayward shot. Design isn't for correctly hit shots.


  As Garland states the design at the green is mostly about the recovery shot.

[Garland Bayley]

Some design is for correctly hit shots. The thing that comes to mind immediately is Macan's use of speed slots for long hitters to get further advantage, and Doak's use of speed slots to let short hitters catch up with long hitters.

[Thomas Dai]

and Doak's use of speed slots to let short hitters catch up with long hitters.

Sounds excellent to me! Even better if coupled to uphill landing areas for longer hitters.

atb

[Garland Bayley]

and Doak's use of speed slots to let short hitters catch up with long hitters.

Sounds excellent to me! Even better if coupled to uphill landing areas for longer hitters.

atb

Not to mention the Hogan's alley for lefty's with a cut!

Context: The 18th at Carne (or maybe 9th on new 9) has a smooth right 1/4 or less of the fairway where a lefty can aim down the right edge, and hit a cut that will find this smooth part as it curves left some and run out well. Whereas, the rest of the fairway has lots of hollows and ridges, one ridge which caught Dai's tee shot and stopped in its tracks while the lefty's ball ran and ran.

Probably wasn't designed though, just occurred.

[Thomas Dai]

The 18th at Carne (or maybe 9th on new 9) has a smooth right 1/4 or less of the fairway where a lefty can aim down the right edge, and hit a cut that will find this smooth part as it curves left some and run out well. Whereas, the rest of the fairway has lots of hollows and ridges, one ridge which caught Dai's tee shot and stopped in its tracks while the lefty's ball ran and ran.

Grrrrrrr!
Terrific place. A big time favourite of mine, all 27-holes of it. The Kilmore-9 is wonderful, a gem that needs polishing, and mowing out to Ally's preferred fairway lines. I wish them every success. Buda there was unforgettable.
atb

[Jud_T]

The point is that there should be a decision beyond simply hacking it back on the fairway.  Do I go for the green?  Do I need an extra club?  Punch shot?  Will the grass grab the club head and turn it over?  The macho rough at some US clubs is masochistic for most members and guests and simply no fun.

[Garland Bayley]

The point is that there should be a decision beyond simply hacking it back on the fairway.  Do I go for the green?  Do I need an extra club?  Punch shot?  Will the grass grab the club head and turn it over?  The macho rough at some US clubs is masochistic for most members and guests and simply no fun.

The problem is that they have too much land. Sell off the extra land to houses, and cut the remaining rough down to size. Macho rough problem solved.

Now if you have a solution to the OB problem created, we with little land on our courses would like to hear it.

At least you don't have to spend futile time looking for balls OB.

[Thomas Dai]

Played Cruden Bay decades ago and the chap I was playing with launched a tee shot way, way off-line. Amazingly we found his ball, only trouble was we then couldn't find where he'd laid his bag down! Took us a while to locate it.
atb

[BCowan]

macho rough doesn't bother me as much as Fescue fairways do.  Also typically in May the rough is at it's healthiest and is going to be very thick even if it is not irrigated. 

[Jud_T]

macho rough doesn't bother me as much as Fescue fairways do.  Also typically in May the rough is at it's healthiest and is going to be very think even if it is not irrigated.

Actually it's not very think, which is exactly the point.

[BCowan]

macho rough doesn't bother me as much as Fescue fairways do.  Also typically in May the rough is at it's healthiest and is going to be very think even if it is not irrigated.

Actually it's not very think, which is exactly the point.

Rough isn't thick in May?  Please

[Bill Seitz]

macho rough doesn't bother me as much as Fescue fairways do. 

I must be missing something.  I just spent the weekend at a course with fescue faiways that were in absolutely perfect condition.  I can't imagine why they would bother anybody.  I'm guessing the folks at Sand Hills, Bandon, and Ballyneal aren't particularly bothered by fescue fairways. 

[BCowan]

macho rough doesn't bother me as much as Fescue fairways do. 

I must be missing something.  I just spent the weekend at a course with fescue faiways that were in absolutely perfect condition.  I can't imagine why they would bother anybody.  I'm guessing the folks at Sand Hills, Bandon, and Ballyneal aren't particularly bothered by fescue fairways.

I just want 65 and older folks to enjoy the game as long as they can.  It's more of a thank you for giving younger generations the gift of Golf. It's another way golfers have become selfish.  I wonder how the folks of Ross common will feel 5 years from now...

[Bill Seitz]

I didn't realize there was an age limit for fescue fairways. That will be news to all the people at my club who are over 65. If you have a problem with walking only facilities, that's a separate issue. I can assure you we are not walking only and have probably the best turf I play on year in, year out.

[BCowan]

No age limit just about the time some folks stop walking.  Fescue isn't the best turf day in and day out and isn't possible in many parts of the US. 

[Jud_T]

Fescue isn't the best turf day in and day out and isn't possible in many parts of the US.

Well, 1 out of 2 ain't bad...

[cary lichtenstein]

Ridiculous rough is just that, Ridiculous. Sure, hit it far enuf off line and you should be penalized, but rough just off the fairway that is so high that it is unplayable is a joke, their is a recovery factor in golf, take that away, might as well put water on both isdesof the fairway.

[mike_malone]

Ridiculous rough is just that, Ridiculous. Sure, hit it far enuf off line and you should be penalized, but rough just off the fairway that is so high that it is unplayable is a joke, their is a recovery factor in golf, take that away, might as well put water on both isdesof the fairway.

Cary,
It's worse than water because you look for the ball for five minutes.