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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2008, 12:30:13 PM »
RFG: the first Biarritz was 1911-1912 at Piping Rock
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Rich Goodale

Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2008, 01:09:46 PM »
Thbanks, George

TEPaul

Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2008, 02:42:50 PM »
TomD:

I realize Macdonald or Darwin may never have written anything about NB's 16th green. The only reason I'd speculate it may have been a model for the biarritz greens he and Raynor did in America is because I am not aware of any well known green in the world that preceded Macdonald's work as an architect that comes even remotely close to looking as similar to MacD/Raynor's American biarritzes as NB's #16 does. Are you? And the second factor is even if we don't know of anything they wrote about it I can hardly imagine they weren't extremely aware of it and the uniqueness of it.

Also, Macdonald said himself in his book he made twenty to thirty sketches of architectural ideas he observed in Europe other than the well known prototype holes. I don't think anyone knows what those sketches pertained to in Europe as I've always heard they are long gone. Isn't that what you've always heard or does George Bahto say he has them? If he does it would be interesting to know where he found them. I heard NGLA actually just dumped a bunch of important things back in the 1950s and the grandson of Macdonald's superintendent at NGLA says when Macdonald died the club gave his grandfather (Macdonald's superintendent) everything they had of Macdonald's architectural material and then fired him.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 03:24:06 PM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2008, 03:22:39 PM »
TE

your last post helped me formulate a question I've long had about Macdonald, and that is, "What was it that he actually SAW on his visits to the UK"?

Do you know what I mean? He was amongst the first of a long line of American-based architects who've gone to study the old great courses. But the difference is, every one of them SINCE Macdonald have had something he didn't, which is their expectations and perceptions and descriptive language and strategic acuity somehow shaped by MACDONALD'S experience there, and by his subsequent choices and writings about that experience. Macdonald alone didn't have that. 

In other words, Macdonald didn't have the benefit (or the bagagge) of Macdonald's precedence to guide or limit him.  So it seems to me that you could say that Macdonald arrived in the UK either "blind" or "without any blinders on".

Few get that experience. So, my question: What did he SEE? Did he see more clearly? Did he miss a lot? Can we a hundred years later really understand what he himself saw through his own eyes that first time?

thanks
Peter 

TEPaul

Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2008, 03:33:21 PM »
"TE
your last post helped me formulate a question I've long had about Macdonald, and that is, "What was it that he actually SAW on his visits to the UK"?
Do you know what I mean?"


Peter:

Of course I do. I think people have wondered about that for years.

For many years it has been known that Macdonald made sketches in Europe of architectural ideas apparently to be used in the design of NGLA. For many years it has been known that Hugh Wilson of Merion did the same thing to be used in the design of Merion. Apparently those sketches from Europe of Macdonald's (some say Deveraux Emmet even did some European sketches for Macdonald) and Wilson's have been missing for many decades.

But I'll tell you right now if anyone ever finds those European sketches of Macdonald or Wilson it would definitely be one of the biggest and most significant golf architecture finds ever known! I guess one could say the same for that mysterious routing plan of Raynor's for Cypress Point.

TEPaul

Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2008, 03:43:39 PM »
Peter:

To Macdonald and Wilson and their apparent sketches of European architecture in preparation to build NGLA and Merion one might also be able to add Herbert Leeds of Myopia.

Herbert Leeds was most definitely a man about the world and I believe he can also be put in Europe even earlier on one of those "study" trips that the likes of Macdonald, Wilson and Crump took in preparation for their courses. The difference with Leeds is he may even have been over there earlier----ie 1902 or perhaps even in the end of the 19th century.

The maddening thing about Leeds is apparently he kept a scrapebook of what he did. Myopia had it and I believe the last man to write a history of Myopia saw it but that too is apparently gone now.

One could probably say the same thing about Devereaux Emmet and perhaps his Garden City GC. It's significance is not just in how good it was but how early it was. Emmet was in Europe all the time. I think he even made an annual habit of it.

What any of those men that early were looking at and thinking about in terms of architecture on the other side and what ideas to bring back and do over here is probably one of the most important questions in the evolution of golf archtitecture, certainly in the evolution of American golf architecture.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 03:48:16 PM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2008, 03:44:40 PM »
Thanks, TE - but I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. The sketches, if found, might tell us what Macdonald derived or culled or was inspired to draw/create from what he saw, but would they give us a better idea of HOW he saw, I mean, either how "unfettered" or how "unfocused" his actual vision was. But maybe that's an imposible question, even if it's clear. (Just saw your last post, TE, thanks - yes, what Macdonald was "thinking about" is what I'm after....but I guess so is everybody else).

Peter

TEPaul

Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2008, 04:01:59 PM »
Peter:

I know what you're getting at.

What they saw over there and what they may've felt they should concentrate on over there I think is the real $64,000 question in the evolution of American architecture.

My sense is most of what Macdonald concentrated on was from the Scottish linksland. That's what he knew so well from his early experiences over there.

But I have this gut feeling that some of the others, like Wilson, Crump, Leeds et al may've been concenetrating on the early heathlands as much as the Scottish linksland.

But why would they do that? I think the answer is it did not take long for them to hear that something really remarkable was happening in the English healthlands and the reason they felt it was so important to them is the heathlands at that time was considered to be producing the first really good man-made architecture in the world INLAND!!

I don't think we can ever over-estimate or underscore enough the significance of the fact it was INLAND----and they knew damn good and well that they would be building their courses in America INLAND too. I think that's precisely why they went there.

I think they realized at that point that much of the greatness of the Scottish linksland courses was its natural elements and not necessarily its man-made elements. I think they realized that much of the greatness of a few of those early heathland courses was their man-made architecture.

I'm not too sure C.B. Macdonald appreciated the heathlands as much as those others did. I think Macdonald copied some of the natural elements of linksland architecture as well as some of the man-made elements of linksland architecture which could be pretty rudimentary looking.  And the reason for that is in many cases it preceded the healthlands in some cases by many decades.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2008, 04:16:12 PM »
Thanks, Tom.

I may well have my dates wrong, but one of the reasons that's interesting is that Wilson's trip followed Macdonald's by less than a decade - and yet, Wilson seems to have brought more to the table than Macdonald in some ways, i.e. more 'open-mindedness' in also searching out the heathland/in land courses, and perhaps more 'sophistication' in better recognizing the interplay between natural features and man-made ones.

Peter   

TEPaul

Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2008, 04:35:53 PM »
"I may well have my dates wrong, but one of the reasons that's interesting is that Wilson's trip followed Macdonald's by less than a decade - and yet, Wilson seems to have brought more to the table than Macdonald in some ways, i.e. more 'open-mindedness' in also searching out the heathland/in land courses, and perhaps more 'sophistication' in better recognizing the interplay between natural features and man-made ones."

Peter:

That may be true of Wilson. Merion has thought that and said that in their histories books for quite a time.

The reality---the odd reality----seems to be that in the first few years Merion may've had some examples of architecture that some came to think of as sort of rudimentary or perhaps just plan ugly and the Merion architects basically got rid of most all of it and began to go with a look that seemed more natural, even if man-made.

TEPaul

Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2008, 04:36:38 PM »
"I may well have my dates wrong, but one of the reasons that's interesting is that Wilson's trip followed Macdonald's by less than a decade - and yet, Wilson seems to have brought more to the table than Macdonald in some ways, i.e. more 'open-mindedness' in also searching out the heathland/in land courses, and perhaps more 'sophistication' in better recognizing the interplay between natural features and man-made ones."

Peter:

That may be true of Wilson. Merion has thought that and said that in their histories books for quite a time.

The reality---the odd reality----seems to be that in the first few years Merion may've had some examples of architecture that some came to think of as sort of rudimentary or perhaps just plain ugly and the Merion architects basically got rid of most all of it and began to go with a look that seemed more natural, even if man-made.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 11:20:54 AM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2008, 11:10:10 AM »
Tom -

just some random thoughts (probably well addressed here long ago, either for or against):

- one of the 'connections' that Macdonald and Wilson shared was Horace Hutchison. I wonder about his influence, first on Macdonald and then later (post-NGLA) on Wilson; and I wonder if, explicitely or implicitely, he guided Wilson a little more inland than he had Macdonald

- could that 'odd reality' at Merion be seen as the birth of the uniquely American aesthetic of golf course architecture? 

And if so (here's just goofy speculation) could you argue that the 'game mind if man' first found its foothold and expression in this development - a foothold tied intimately to turn of the century America with its rapid move from the agrarian to the industrial?

Peter 

 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 11:14:42 AM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2008, 11:49:07 AM »
"Tom -

just some random thoughts (probably well addressed here long ago, either for or against):

- one of the 'connections' that Macdonald and Wilson shared was Horace Hutchison. I wonder about his influence, first on Macdonald and then later (post-NGLA) on Wilson; and I wonder if, explicitely or implicitely, he guided Wilson a little more inland than he had Macdonald."

Peter:

Macdonald certainly had a connection with Horace Hutchinson, in that he seemed to know him quite well and respect him. Actually Macdonald seemed quite proud of the way Hutchinson reviewed his NGLA when Hutchinson was over here cruising around on some bigwig's yacht. On the other hand, I am not aware that Hugh Wilson had much connection with Hutchinson. I do think that Wilson had some connections with Harry Colt both when Wilson was over in the heathlands and then when Colt was over here before WW1.

"- could that 'odd reality' at Merion be seen as the birth of the uniquely American aesthetic of golf course architecture?"

What I meant by 'that odd reality' is simply that from around 1912 until after 1916 Merion did have a number of architectural features that were reminiscent of the "National School" architecture as well as some of those rudimentary mounds known as "alpinization" or "Mid-Surrey" mounding. Between 1916 and the early 1930s Merion removed all that kind of thing from the course and went with a style that can only be described as more natural looking. Ron Prichard, for instance, thinks the dished shaped/sand flashed Merion bunker was basically the first evidence of that kind of thing in American architecture and that it in fact became the prototypical American bunker style. 

"And if so (here's just goofy speculation) could you argue that the 'game mind if man' first found its foothold and expression in this development - a foothold tied intimately to turn of the century America with its rapid move from the agrarian to the industrial?"

I wouldn't say that the "game mind of man" necessarily had everything to do with any particular kind of aesthetic with the possible exception of one that was really highly defined lookingh as to in or out or penalty or reward. But I do think one does need to consider the beginnings of what came to be known in American architecture as "modern" or "scientific" architecture, and I think Merion was certainly in that camp with some others of that time.

I think that kind of thing wasn't so much about a "look" or aesthetic necessarily as it was about how to design things to create risk/reward situations for most everyone's type of game. I think those guys were simply trying to figure out what the future of golf should be and how it could be reflected in golf architecture.

These things are never black and white and all that easily categorized, in my opinion, Peter. There were a whole lot of cross-currents going on back then. I think American golf and architecture was just looking to find its own way of doing things whether with a "look" or with various architectural "arrangements" to effect and influence everyone's game in some better and more interesting ways.

I think there was a definite transition period with both golf and architecture from the Old World but then around the middle of the teens Americans and American architects decided they didn't need to sit at the knee of non-American architects from the Old World any longer (as Tillinghast wrote) and as USGA President Robertson said: "....nothing remains in America long without being Americanized."

I'm sure most all of us realize America is pretty good at doing that and they always have been!  ;)

Peter Pallotta

Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2008, 12:09:45 PM »
Tom - thanks, good stuff.

I really should try to knock off my a priori reasoning and arguing from conclusions. I certainly complain about it enough when I see others doing it :)

Peter

Rick Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 16th green at North Berwick
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2017, 09:38:37 AM »
I was able to play North Berwick for the first time last Tuesday and it was definitely top 3 of courses I have played for sheer fun. I think it has the most fun back 9 I have ever played and for me the standout hole was the 16th mainly because of this amazing green complex. I'll call it a sideways Biarritz. The fall offs around it and the trough front right! I've heard it said many times on here that a great links hole works well into and downwind and I played it twice back to back in a strong headwind. Hitting that green in two into the wind from behind the burn would be an all time great golf shot. A caddie then proceeded to tell me that he's seen more than one pro nearly drive the green and not make par when the hole is downwind. I could spend hours chipping and putting from all around and on this thing. I walked the Old course on Sunday two days before and it makes the Road Hole green complex look tame. Does anyone know of a wilder, crazier, fun, weird green complex than this. If you haven't seen this green before look at the pictures on page one of this thread and then realize it doesn't even begin to do it justice!

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