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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
"The hole is unfair"
« on: June 17, 2017, 07:48:18 AM »
 ???


We are just starting to build a couple new holes at my home club Greate Bay. (Park Jr. 1923 ?) at the  Jersey Shore.  I think they will be excellent as one is a recreation of an original that has lain dormant for 30 years.


However , I've recently been assailed about some work we did in 1999 to redo another old hole that had been changed by Ron  Garl in the 1980's . It's our second hole, a really nice par four that can stretch to 465 from the tips. We rebuilt it in 1999 , removing a strange par 3 and a short par 4 , opting to recreate an original Park Jr hole that is now our 2nd hole . We built a new par three (16h ) to replace the par three that we imploded . I've been happy with the flow it created and like both holes a lot .


When we rebuilt # 2 it was obvious the green is difficult to hold . It's  elevated and wider than deep . A big bunker protects 2/3 of the front entry with a big false front right that allows for a ball to run up onto the surface. For most of our players its really difficult to hit in two even from the 415 yard tees due to the design. However it's the number one handicap hole on a golf course that's not really penal but subtly difficult . I like it a lot . Although I'm getting older I can still hit it high enough and far enough to hold the green unless I miss my tee shot . When I do that the front right becomes my aim point and just hope to grind out a par.

We tinkered with the idea of playing it as a short five , but no matter how far It was stretched the best  we could do was about 475 yards. It just had to be a tough four.  So fast forward almost twenty year and some of my golf buddies who can play a little (5-13 handicap )  are busting me that its "unfair" , they can't hold this green with a hybrid or wood when its firm and fast .  Hold on I say , it's the number one handicap hole and a lot of the 0-5 handicappers who play in our game make bogey there and you get a shot ." It's an easy win for you many days" .  Nope , that doesn't matter , its bad , too tough .  Even for guys with decent golf IQ'S the unfair issue will raise its ugly head.  Sometimes you just have to grin and bear it here in the states when it comes to scoring . 


What I love about you guys on the other side of the pond is your attitude that par is just a number , sometimes its a tough number.


« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 02:09:08 PM by archie_struthers »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The hole is unfair"
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2017, 08:06:55 AM »
Depends upon what you want to hear...
Change only the par to 5 and you can listen to
"it's too easy"
Then some knucklehead will demand it be handicap 18


I'll never understand how a 5-13 handicap demand that a hole be reachable or holdable for them
that's what the shots are for
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The hole is unfair"
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2017, 08:27:55 AM »
Archie-I think 2 is a hell of a golf hole. Period.

BCowan

Re: "The hole is unfair"
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2017, 08:30:54 AM »
???


We are just starting to build a couple new holes at my home club Greate Bay. (Park Jr. 1923 ?) at the  Jersey Shore.  I think they will be excellent as one is a recreation of an original that has lain dormant for 30 years.


However , I've recently been assailed about some work we did in 1999 to redo another old hole that had been changed by Ron  Garl in the 1980's . It's our second hole, a really nice par four that can stretch to 465 from the tips. We rebuilt it in 1999 , removing a strange par 3 and a short par 4 , opting to recreate an original Park Jr hole that is now our 2nd hole . We built a new par three (16h ) to replace the par three that we imploded . I've been happy with the flow it created and like both holes a lot .


When we rebuilt # 2 it was obvious the green is difficult to hold . It's  elevated and wider than deep . A big bunker protects 2/3 of the front entry with a big false front right that allows for a ball to run up onto the surface. For most of our players its really difficult to hit in two even from the 415 yard tees due to the design. However it's the number one handicap hole on a golf course that's not really penal but subtly difficult . I like it a lot . Although I'm getting older I can still hit it high enough and far enough to hold the green unless I miss my tee shot . When I do that the front right becomes my aim point and just hope to grind out a par.

We tinkered with the idea of playing it as a short five , but no matter how far It was stretched the best  we could do was about 475 yards. It just had to be a tough four.  So fast forward almost twenty year and some of my golf buddies who can play a little (5-13 handicap )  are busting me that its "unfair" , they can't hold this green with a hybrid or wood when its firm and fast .  Hold on I say , it's the number one handicap hole and a lot of the 0-5 handicappers who play in our game make bogey there and you get a shot ." It's an easy win for you many days" .  Nope , that doesn't matter , its bad , too tough .  Even for guys with decent golf IQ'S the unfair issue sometimes will raise its ugly head.  Sometimes you just have to grin and bear it here in the states when it comes to scoring . 


What I love about you guys on the other side of the pond is your attitude that par is just a number , sometimes its a tough number.


Illuminati,


   The same thing I experienced with the boys in used to play with.  They were 30 years older then me and scratch players. When they got to their 60s they wanted the course to work for them, without moving up a set of tees.  One of them fought to have the greenside cross bunker less in play on our 2nd handicap hole which was the toughest on the course.  In a sense they forget about admiring great golf which means over coming difficult obstacles every now and then.  You should give each of them a trophy. 

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The hole is unfair"
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2017, 08:51:51 AM »
 ;) 8)


Just a footnote , I'm not changing anything on #2 but always like to listen . Ben hit the nail on the head with my buddies , they are getting a little long in the tooth and don't want to play any different.  It's the same reason we have very few seniors playing in our black tee game on Monday .  I get it , just enjoy grinding it more.


This being said for me golf needs to be fun , design difficulty for the expert and you are doing a good job . . When you can twist them without their knowledge its really good stuff !
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 08:55:12 AM by archie_struthers »

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The hole is unfair"
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2017, 12:32:35 PM »
The low Handicap or Stroke Index holes on most golf courses tend to be long par 4's which are reachable in two shots only for good golfers.


5 - 13 handicappers should not expect to be able to reach the greens in two on such holes every time. let alone "hold the green". If they were that good, they would have a lower handicap.


I have heard much the same "unfair" criticism levelled against our stroke 3 hole, a 460 yarder with dense rough and undergrowth in a wooded ravine immediately behind a blind green. A well-hit fairway wood  will often bounce through the green never to be seen again.


"Good" players however, will be hitting mid irons to the green, not fairway woods.


What do these mid-handicappers think their shots are for?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 01:27:37 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The hole is unfair"
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2017, 12:37:06 PM »
Archie,


#2 is not unfair in the slightest.


Tell your friends to man up.  ;)
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The hole is unfair"
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2017, 01:22:44 PM »
That happens to be one of my favorite holes at Greate Bay, Archie.  I hope you don't change it a bit!

Pictures of the 2nd hole from my photo album (a Feb 2017 visit) begin here:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/GreateBay/pages/page_10.html
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 01:26:18 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The hole is unfair"
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2017, 02:13:57 PM »
 8)


As always Mr Bausch comes thru with something to look at . Ty Joe


The overhead gives best look at the hole.




Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The hole is unfair"
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2017, 04:30:44 AM »

Try putting the daily tee a yard behind the medal tee and call it a par five from there but a par 4 from the medal.


Jon

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The hole is unfair"
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2017, 06:04:49 AM »
 ;D




Don't think that hadn't entered my mind John ! 8)

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