Reachable par 4 holes and Alice Dye

[Joe Hancock]

Matt, that's a great player. I'm a good player (4 handicap, traveling) and those aren't my numbers!

275 is definitely a par 3 for today's good player. Sadly, 275 is now between a 2 iron and a 3 wood for a good player.

So the quality of a golfer is based on how far they can hit a ball? I would not have thought this idea would be so reinforced on this website, but here it is.

Grandpa Joe gives enlightenment. Class in session.

If you are under the age of 30 today and have a handicap less than 5 I would say there is overwhelmingly likely chance that you can drive the ball consistently over 300 yards. This is just the reality of the modern player. I am sorry if this is not your reality.

That tightens up the demographics of the discussion a bit. I guess if most modern players fall into that group, then my reality needs adjustment. Admittedly, I'm a dinosaur when it comes to keeping up with equipment and such. I just didn't realize that all good golfers are long, and that all long golfers are good.

[Ronald Montesano]

One person recognizing a corroboration between distance and skill/talent is not reinforcement.


If you read my longer/windier post that follows, you'll see that length is not the only definition of greatness when it comes to golf.


I continue to deceive/delude myself into thinking that my tempo, my whip, my snap, my release, are as fast as they might have once been. At 51, I'm hitting the ball very well, which I would offer 75% to equipment and 25% to fitness.


Unless you're swinging hickory or other period pieces, yesterday's courses are today's courses. If you put on the restrictor plate, you're playing yesterday's courses as yesterday's courses.


I'm of the mind that tasting what it's like to be a pro, if only for a moment or a round, is enlightening. If technology allows us to have that sensation, we are privy to something that basketball, football, american football, swimming, diving, rugby, wrestling aficionados dream of. It's one of the perquisites of our chosen vice.


If a course like Merion East needs to change its setup to accommodate the elite touring pro, that's fine. Just change it back when the tournament ends, a festivus for the restofus.

[Ronald Montesano]

Drive 225, 250 to 300 leaves partial pitch;
[/size]Drive 240, 265 to 315 leaves partial pitch;Drive 265, 290 to 340 leaves partial pitch;Drive 280, 305 to 355 leaves partial pitch;Drive 300, 325 to 375 leaves partial pitch;Anomalistic are the 400 yard par four hole at Whistling Straits that was driven by the elite touring pros a few years ago, but for how long?

[Joe Zucker]

Joe, if you averaged 300.0 yds, you would rank #76 on the Web.com tour.  The tour average is 299.5 yds.


The average distance of PGA Tour professionals is not the "ceiling" on driving distance of younger players, both pro and amateur.  Matt's post reflects the reality of today's game.

I still disagree.  It just does not seem possible to me that the young single digit players are as long as even the 76th longest player on the Web.com tour.  I agree that it is not the ceiling because young guys can swing for the fences, but it doesn't pass the smell test to me that they would be hitting it by many guys playing for money.  If there were stats for State Ams, that would be the test.  I highly doubt the average drive is 300 yards in these events.


However, even if I grant the average 5 handicap is hitting it 300, that is still not the reality of the game.  Very few people are single digit players and even fewer of the single digits hit it 300.  If we want a drivable par 4, some thing at 275-290 is going to be more than enough for more than 95% of golfers.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Joe, I agree with your last sentence, but we will have to disagree on distances that good young players (juniors, college players, competitive ams) hit the ball.  They are not necessarily hitting first from the fairway when playing with touring pros. But that is a very small % of the overall golf population, so again I agree with your last sentence.

[Ronald Montesano]

I love the anomalies of this Chat-Room software. Tiny, tiny font size from time to time.

Drive 225, 250 to 300 leaves partial pitch;
Drive 240, 265 to 315 leaves partial pitch;
Drive 265, 290 to 340 leaves partial pitch;
Drive 280, 305 to 355 leaves partial pitch;
Drive 300, 325 to 375 leaves partial pitch;

Anomalistic are the 400 yard par four hole at Whistling Straits that was driven by the elite touring pros a few years ago, but for how long?

[Sean_A]

I see very few club golfers of any age routinely carrying drives 300 yards, but a decent percentage who carry drives 275 and a goodly percentage carrying drives 250..maybe 10-15%. 250 was a big drive when I was 18 back in 1981. I would say 300 is the new 250, not exactly rare, but very noticeable when it happens. I literally cannot see where these drives land. But we are really splitting hairs... again. Guys are blasting drives a long way.

But we all know the best short 4s are those where huge hitters cannot simply go to the driver.. it may be too much club. The best drivable 4s are those where the ball must be bounced into the green.

Ciao

[Don Jordan]

the curse of par, most of my favourite holes are short 4/5's. Just call driveable par 4's par 3's so the pros feel compelled to go for it so they still look manly and watch the fun unfold.

[Richard Fisher]

Agreed. The three most enjoyable short Par-Fours (i.e. in the 250-300 yard range) in the UK that I know well personally are

16th at Aberdovey (the overall category winner - a 'glorious and unique hole', to quote P Dickinson)
4th at St Enedoc
17th at Huntercombe

where a driver (depending of course on the wind) is rarely the best option for those with aspirations to drive the green.

[Don Jordan]

The 8th at Oakmont last year played 299 yards as a par 3. Stick a bunker in front and it is a par 4...

Reachable and hittable are two very different thing, my favourite short par 4 is in Perth (Australia) - the 12th at Western Australia Golf Club, it is around 280m downhill with one of the best views in Perth. The green is well defended and there are no easy putts, the only opening to the green is on the front left corner. There is an easy lay up to a pitch but the pitch is difficult, go at the green and put it in a bunker and it takes a great shot to get your birdie, miss right and it is tough to make a four. You can go at the front left but the OOB fence is only 5-10 metres away. Reachable yes, hittable - not really.

The first at Victoria is another great one.

[Jud_T]

1.  The average male player who even posts is a 15.  They carry the ball, what, 225?


2.  Sean, balls rarely bounce in the States.


3.  There are a couple thousand college players and journeymen pros who hit the ball a very long way. Who cares?  There are maybe 2 guys at my club who routinely carry the ball 300.  They represent 1% of the membership.  Fortunately the course wasn't designed primarily with them in mind.

[Parker Page]

For reference, I'm a 35 year-old 5 handicap. My typical carry distance for a driver is 250. This makes #5 at Sweetens a perfect example for me for this topic.


It's 283 on the card, so it's possible for me to get it on the green, particularly with a tailwind. But this is rarely the wisest play because of the nasty bunker fronting the middle of the green, the waste bunker short right, and the nasty chip coming back if I happen to go long. This is particularly true if the pin is on the left. I should also mention the difficulty added by the crowned green. Thus it is wiser for me to lay up if I wish to make a birdie, but that play also negates my possibility for a spectacular eagle, which means I end up pulling a driver more often than not. I imagine this calculus would hold true even if Jason Day were on the tee hitting two iron, which is what makes this a great hole to me, regardless of whether one calls it a par 3 or 4.


I also imagine that this is not the kind of hole Alice Dye had in mind. My guess is that her criticism of the new #12 at Sawgrass is that it is too easy to hit the green. Her sense seems to be that the pros were "supposed" to hit that green, and therefore it should have been called a par 3. I doubt she (or Tom) would aim the same criticism at Sweetens #5 or all driveable par 4's in general.

[Thomas Dai]

Just call driveable par 4's par 3's so the pros feel compelled to go for it so they still look manly and watch the fun unfold.

Nicely put.
atb

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

For reference, I'm a 35 year-old 5 handicap. My typical carry distance for a driver is 250. This makes #5 at Sweetens a perfect example for me for this topic.


It's 283 on the card, so it's possible for me to get it on the green, particularly with a tailwind. But this is rarely the wisest play because of the nasty bunker fronting the middle of the green, the waste bunker short right, and the nasty chip coming back if I happen to go long. This is particularly true if the pin is on the left. I should also mention the difficulty added by the crowned green. Thus it is wiser for me to lay up if I wish to make a birdie, but that play also negates my possibility for a spectacular eagle, which means I end up pulling a driver more often than not. I imagine this calculus would hold true even if Jason Day were on the tee hitting two iron, which is what makes this a great hole to me, regardless of whether one calls it a par 3 or 4.


I also imagine that this is not the kind of hole Alice Dye had in mind. My guess is that her criticism of the new #12 at Sawgrass is that it is too easy to hit the green. Her sense seems to be that the pros were "supposed" to hit that green, and therefore it should have been called a par 3. I doubt she (or Tom) would aim the same criticism at Sweetens #5 or all driveable par 4's in general.

Love short 4s and recently played a great one, though not driveable due to an uphill volcano green. The #13 Knoll hole at Piping Rock. 300 yards but only driveable if you can fly a drive and have it stop on a dime. I drove it nearly to the greensite base, long for me, then had a 40 yard uphill lob wedge to a small green. Smart play is probably a 200 yard tee shot and a full wedge. Beautiful golf hole, among many