USGA Spec Greens - North Shore Country Club

[Tim Fitz]

As many in the Chicagoland area know, severe winters several years ago had a dramatic impact on putting greens around the North Shore of Chicago.  While over the last few years many clubs in the area have closed shortly after Labor Day to "gas and grow" new bent greens (replacing the poa greens typically found at clubs in the area), North Shore Country Club is taking things one step further. We plan to close the course in early June for a major bunkers and greens project that will keep us off the course until next Memorial Day.  The greens will all be torn up to be rebuild to USGA spec, with bent replacing the poa.

NSCC is a family club that happens to have a pretty great golf course (CH Alison).  While our greens aren't the most dramatic in the Chicago area, they roll true and a few of them (e.g. 4, 5, 16) are quite interesting.  I have a front row seat to watch the project unfold.  Admittedly, it leaves me a bit nervous that we will be able to rebuild the greens to the same standard.  However, we are blessed with a top tier superintendent.  He has been planning for this event for years and it leaves us all confident this is the right approach for us.

Danny Dinelli recently posted the below article regarding Turfgrass Ecology and the changes to the NSCC greens to LinkedIn (since he made the article public, please avoid chiming in that this is club business that shouldn't be shared outside the club).  I thought many might find this interesting, even if most of the science goes right over my head.  To the extent there is interest, I'll follow up with additional information from Dan if/when he makes it publicly available.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/putting-greensreducing-risk-while-improving-dan-dinelli?trk=v-feed&lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Ad_flagship3_feed%3B%2Ft78I0ReYfot1If4Er%2BeKg%3D%3D

[PCCraig]

Hi Tim,


Congrats on the pending project at North Shore. I grew up just down the street from the course.


Which architect is overseeing the project? Is the bunker style going to change? (I thought the bunkers were just rebuilt not that long ago). Are the contours of the putting surfaces going to remain the same, or will those be altered? Are you guys going to be taking down any trees?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Who is the contractor?


There are several pretty skilled in this.  If done with care, the contours should be able to be replicated within a tenth of an inch or so.  While I have known members who say they can sense the change, it seems pretty unlikely to me that such small differences would be truly notices.

[Terry Lavin]

Let's hope that you cut down every tree that imparts any shade on any green. Otherwise, the poa annua will slowly start wreaking its insidious toll. North Shore is a great course on uninspiring land dotted with huge Alison bunkers. Only a couple weak holes out there. Great membership, too.

[Don Mahaffey]

Jeff,
I think golfers say they can tell a difference because they are different. You can map the contours to the 100th of an inch and put them back but if you change the grass, and the rootzone, then they ARE going to play differently. Not say it isn't for the better, but they will probably be firmer, initially have much less thatch, and probably a much more uniform surface meaning faster a higher percentage of the time. So, better or not, they will be different.

I'm not convinced that we should always tie the hands of the builder/architect with this desire to put everything back exactly as before. If they are firmer a higher % of the time, and faster a higher % of the time, sometimes an intelligent alteration might not be the worst idea.

Besides, I had a dream last night and I'm pretty sure I was channeling CH Allison, and he told me he'd never redone a green and put it back exactly the same. 

[Terry Lavin]

The Alison greens at Bob O'Link (the 16 thought to be authentic) were laser mapped and resurfaced and I haven't heard anybody whine about them. Trees aplenty were chopped too. Second season just started.

[SL_Solow]

This project has been meticulously planned for several years.  Dan Dinelli is one of the truly outstanding superintendents I have ever met.  One might agree or disagree with the approach but the project is well planned and I am confident that it will be properly executed.

[JC Urbina]

Tim,


Just got off the golf course at the Bob OLink course with the superintendent Scott Pavalko.  The greens are rolling true and members polled are happy with the way the golf course turned out after one season.


If someone can help me post a photo I would be happy to share today's snapshots.


As some of you may or may not know Bob O'Link club closed down the summer of 2015 for a complete redo of the greens, bunkers, tees and fairways with no regrets. 


Greens were mapped except for the two that I was allowed creative license with, they were changed in the late 90's and did not look or play like the other 16 greens.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,
I think golfers say they can tell a difference because they are different. You can map the contours to the 100th of an inch and put them back but if you change the grass, and the rootzone, then they ARE going to play differently. Not say it isn't for the better, but they will probably be firmer, initially have much less thatch, and probably a much more uniform surface meaning faster a higher percentage of the time. So, better or not, they will be different.

I'm not convinced that we should always tie the hands of the builder/architect with this desire to put everything back exactly as before. If they are firmer a higher % of the time, and faster a higher % of the time, sometimes an intelligent alteration might not be the worst idea.

Besides, I had a dream last night and I'm pretty sure I was channeling CH Allison, and he told me he'd never redone a green and put it back exactly the same.

Don, actually had to run before finishing that last post, but agree with everything you said above.  That includes your dream, because I would be certain that if Allison ever rebuilt any of his greens, construction techniques would have not been precise enough to get a perfect match, so you can say that with certainty.  Not to mention, if he was like the typical architect, he couldn't resist the temptation to fiddle with it either.


Every rebuild is a chance to improve something, so why not take it?  Obviously, there is value judgement in what an improvement is, and it is usually folly to try to turn a green into something it isn't (i.e., add a waterfall)  but if there are problems - like slopes too steep for now and future conditions, why not fix them?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,


Just got off the golf course at the Bob OLink course with the superintendent Scott Pavalko.  The greens are rolling true and members polled are happy with the way the golf course turned out after one season.


If someone can help me post a photo I would be happy to share today's snapshots.


As some of you may or may not know Bob O'Link club closed down the summer of 2015 for a complete redo of the greens, bunkers, tees and fairways with no regrets. 


Greens were mapped except for the two that I was allowed creative license with, they were changed in the late 90's and did not look or play like the other 16 greens.

Jim,


I recall rebuilding 11 when with Killian and Nugent, probably a few others, but that would have been pre 1983 when the firm split up.  We extended it to the water and redid the bunkers.  Bob Williams was the super then, and he had some very definite bunker ideas (also very nice, much more shapely than anything KN did, even though they were harder to maintain)  Who did the 1990's redo's?


All,


Can't resist telling this story, since the thread is on North Shore.  About 1980, Killian and Nugent did the greens at North Shore, probably for the current supers father or uncle, since the Dinelli family has been supers around Chicago for a long time.  I drew and staked out a fairly shapely bunker for that particular green, it got built, but when I came back a few days later, it had simplified quite a bit.  The super had rounded off all edges for easier mowing, and added a little exit area just wider than the sand pro.  He told me he had reshaped it over night and this happened several times.  Frustrated, and playing architect, I changed it back, telling him it looked like a GD pork chop.  He said, "Yeah, that's the look I was going for, the pork chop bunker" and walked off.


In honor of that, I occasionally build a pork chop bunker to this day, although only the 7th at Wild Wing has lived up to the true promise of the idea and execution of the original one.......

[Anthony_Nysse]

The Alison greens at Bob O'Link (the 16 thought to be authentic) were laser mapped and resurfaced and I haven't heard anybody whine about them. Trees aplenty were chopped too. Second season just started.

We had ours GPSed to the 1/10th of an inch. Other that the 3 greens we changed, no one knows the difference. Membership and Dye loved the original greens, so why not put them back.

[Kevin_Reilly]

From Jim:


#1 green viewed from #2 tee:





#9 right greenside bunker:

[Terry Lavin]

Kevin,

It would be great if you could work with Jim and do a photo tour of Bob O'Link so we can stop the thread jack here.  But while I'm here, I can summarize Urbina's work thusly:  He made every, single hole better.  A goodly number are now transformationally better.  Just starting with the first, it was a straightaway 425 yard (estimate) par-4 with bunkers on both sides of the green.  Jim got rid of the one on the right and replaced it with a grassed hollow and put a huge, gaping bunker about thirty yards short of the green.  It puts evil thoughts into the golfers head and turned something bland into something grand.

[Tim Fitz]

Judge Lavin/Shel, thanks for the kind words about NSCC and Dan Dinelli in particular.

In addition to NSCC and Bob O'Link sharing an architect, there is a tremendous amount of overlap in the membership as well, up to an including the President of Bob O that oversaw the work. 

With Dan's very thoughtful planning for our greens/bunkers work, we are as confident as one can be that the end result will be worth the effort, time and expense.  I am not yet sure whether any additional changes will be made to the course -  I would love to see some new mowing lines, especially around the greens to capture the runoff from our pushed up greens (that photo of Bob O looks terrific).  As others have mentioned, there are hundreds of trees that could come down and at least several dozen that should come down.  Judge, in response to your recommendation, the tree sitting behind the 14th green that shaded the green (which was most damaged during the polar vortex) and the 15th tee was removed during the off season.  That more than anything should help avoid some of the issues we saw in our greens previously.

In response to a few of the other questions, the designer that has consulted NSCC for years is Ric Jacobson, the work is being done by Wadsworth.

For those interested in the agronomy, Dan Dinelli put out another article detailing the process by which he (and the team) tested various strains of bent grass at NSCC and how they selected what they anticipate is the ultimate blend.

[PCCraig]

Ric Jacobson? Really? Again??