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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2017, 03:45:41 PM »

There seem to be more than a few cases where a competitor has suggested something that has been implemented.  Maybe they ought to let last year's champ make one suggestion for the annual changes. LOL.  Also seems like they might have been either really progressive or a bit insecure in what they had as a course? 


To be honest, let's ask if design changes are more fundamentally sincere if:


They take a look at current needs and respond, or


They try to emulate some older version of the course?


And, that might start with the lack of bunkers.  Mac, who was the best bunkerer ever, IMHO, only came to the "less bunkers is more" theory when trying to sell work after 1929.  The relative lack of bunkering was tied to finances, and ANGC started a bit thin.  Obviously, money is no issue now, so that shouldn't (and obviously isn't) a factor.


Whatever the actual reason(s) they clearly believed the course was there to remodel as they saw fit.  They seemed to follow then current trends, rather than totally lead as may now be assumed.  Maybe in remodeling out every perceived flaw, they are honoring their architectural tradition much more than restoring the original design......



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2017, 08:25:02 PM »
Aren't the Jackson Kahn guys connected with Fazio in some way as is the group TW uses.  My bet is TW comments were scripted. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCrosby

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2017, 10:15:47 AM »
Jeff writes:

"Mac, who was the best bunkerer ever, IMHO, only came to the "less bunkers is more" theory when trying to sell work after 1929.  The relative lack of bunkering was tied to finances, and ANGC started a bit thin."

While that sort of claim is not crazy, I've never thought it made much sense.

First, MacK never said anything remotely close to that. He never suggested that he would have built a different course at ANGC if only he had been given more money. To the contrary, he wrote at great length about why  the bunkering at ANGC was exactly what he wanted it to be. Bobby Jones said the same thing time and again. The limited number of bunkers was something they were proud of. It made the course more playable for weaker golfers, among other things.  There is nothing in the record to suggest their complaining about a design that "might have been" but for more money.  Are you suggesting MacK and Jones were making up some sort of tall tale?

Second, if money drove the design of ANGC, how do you explain the installation of a (then) state of the art irrigation system, piping Rae's Creek at various spots and the expense of building of extremely wide fairways and enormous, highly contoured greens?

Third, money was indeed short for the ANGC project. But the budget for the golf course was determined at the outset and never reduced. Their money problems were met by eliminating a par 3 course, a pool and tennis courts and dumping the idea of building a new clubhouse. The original budget for the course, set early on before anyone thought there would be money issues, was never reduced. (As I recall the correspondence in the Olmsted files, they took pains not to touch the budget for course construction.  Other things were sacrificed.)   

Fourth, the "less bunkers is more" idea had been around for a while, was a well-established design principle and did not arise as a response to tight budgets. It was a constant refrain of Tom Simpson. Likewise Max Behr. It was one of several Golden Age ideas about golf course design that arose independently and with its own justifications that had nothing to do with money constraints.

MacK and Jones designed and built exactly the course they wanted to build at ANGC, not a second best course.  Moreover, they said so time and again.  I see no good reason to doubt them.

Bob

Jim Nugent

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2017, 11:14:05 AM »
Bob Crosby, excellent post.  MacKenzie wrote that the land forms and streams made more bunkers unnecessary. 

Does anyone know if Mac helped select the site for ANGC?  Or did Jones bring him in only after they found and chose the land? 

Jim Lipstate

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2017, 11:14:37 AM »
The Jackson Kahn bunker reimagining at Augusta is striking. The bunkers edges mimic fractal geometry which is abundant in nature and seems much more natural than the close cut almost elliptical bunkers featured on many holes in the current iteration of ANGC. Some of the original bunker designs seem definitely more fractal in nature based on the photographs posted.


Along a similar line, I think I would much prefer to gaze, contemplate and play the Egan naturalistic bunkering and dunes complexes at Pebble Beach on multiple holes including the iconic 7th and 17th as opposed to the current much less natural bunker layout. In Pebble Beach Golf Links the Official History it is noted that the "imitation dunes" on the fourth hole were believed to be natural by many first time visitors. The power of using a fractal approach either knowingly or because it "looks right" is that it will much more resemble something created by nature.

Joshua Pettit

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2017, 06:50:48 PM »
Bob Crosby, excellent post.  MacKenzie wrote that the land forms and streams made more bunkers unnecessary. 

Does anyone know if Mac helped select the site for ANGC?  Or did Jones bring him in only after they found and chose the land?

Jim, 

No, MacKenzie wasn't involved with picking the site.  The land at Fruitland Nursery had already been selected.  But he did get to choose what he thought was the best of the 315 acres for the golf course, and in fact was influential in the decision to build only one golf course instead of two which was the original idea, because he thought the amount of land was insufficient.  That's actually what lead to the idea of building an approach and putt (Par 3) course.
"The greatest and fairest of things are done by nature, and the lesser by art."

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2017, 05:44:40 AM »

Aren't the Jackson Kahn guys connected with Fazio in some way as is the group TW uses.  My bet is TW comments were scripted.


Theyve worked with Fazio for years on the west coast.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

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