Mixes of Holes/Pars and Pace of Play

[MCirba]

We talk here a lot about eschewing convention and that an architect's primary job should be to find the best holes on a property and the sequencing and pars of holes should be a secondary consideration even if it leads to things like par 36 on the front, 34 on the back, or two par threes or fives in a row, etc.

Besides simple convention, do "the rules" have any practical applications we should consider?   For instance, let's say the front nine of a course is par 36 with 7 par fours and only one par 3 and 5, but the back nine has three of each;

Might there be some risk to pace of play on the back nine with players waiting for others to hole out on the par threes or perhaps trying to reach par fives in two, or would the total yardage and lack of those things on the front nine make it a wash at the end of the day?

Chris Roselle brought up this concern on another thread (Rolling Green) and I thought it warranted its own topic to see what people think, or have experienced.

Thanks!

[mike_malone]

I find that holes where balls get lost are the slowest.

[Joe Hancock]

I suppose as an aside, it would be interesting to know what percentage of courses actually have levels of play that cause (cost?) pace of play issues. I know that the number of "busy" golf courses in west Michigan has reduced greatly in the past 15 years.


Sorry if this is a thread-jack.

[Tom_Doak]

Besides simple convention, do "the rules" have any practical applications we should consider?   For instance, let's say the front nine of a course is par 36 with 7 par fours and only one par 3 and 5, but the back nine has three of each;

Mike:


Pacific Dunes is almost exactly as you've described, with the exception of a FOURTH par-3 on the back side.


My experience is that it gets slow on #10 and 11, the back to back par-3's, after sailing along on the front nine; but after that, there weren't many backups.  I'll be out there next week, so I'll ask; and of course Sven and others here have some experience with it.


In that particular case, I'd guess the overall quality of the course makes the pace of play issues generated a secondary concern.


If you really wanted to speed up play you would avoid reachable par-5's and driveable par-4's, too ... in fact you'd avoid almost anything that was really interesting.  So to me it's a question of how much you want to put up with to hold the golfer's interest.

[Garland Bayley]

I find that holes where balls get lost are the slowest.

Our back nine has three each. The primarily noticeable slowdown is the par 3 hole where balls regularly get lost. The green is fronted by a stream, and the banks are not maintained to ANGC standards leaving tall grass to search on either side. The next most noticeable slowdown is the par 4 where the stream angles across the landing zone for the tee ball.

[Thomas Dai]

Where I mostly play there has always been a distinct speed of play pattern.
Holes 3, 4 and 5 are par-3, shortish par-5 and long par-5. A bottleneck in play always occurs here with folk waiting on most shots on these three holes. But from the 6th tee onwards the bottleneck disappears and pace of play from then on is fine.
Atb

[Mike_Trenham]

My home course goes 5-3-3-5.  It rarely is a pace of play issue.  Both of the 5's are easier (reachable) while the 3's are challening (no water).  The biggest issue is the halfway house on #10 between the back to back par 3s. 


Want evidence that these back to back 3s it is not a pace of play issue?  Tradition is that you hit your tee shot on ten before going into the halfway house as the green is typically clear when you get to the tee.

[Ira Fishman]

Pace of play is a people issue, not an design issue.  If the culture of a course is that none of us are going to be Jack or Tiger or Jordan, play will be at a good pace.  Or if the culture of a course is let's take a cart even if it is cart path only (exception for medically necessary), play will not be at a good pace.  There is no way around both problems at some high end resorts, but we know the problem when we make the tee time.   

[BCowan]

My home course goes 5-3-3-5.  It rarely is a pace of play issue.  Both of the 5's are easier (reachable) while the 3's are challening (no water).  The biggest issue is the halfway house on #10 between the back to back par 3s. 


Want evidence that these back to back 3s it is not a pace of play issue?  Tradition is that you hit your tee shot on ten before going into the halfway house as the green is typically clear when you get to the tee.

I played a course in Northern Michigan this summer called Harbor Pointe.  You walk past the 18th tee to get to the 17th tee a par 3.  You then walk back to the 18th tee up a hill from 17 green.  I asked a friend and he replied, after the 16th hole, you hit your tee shot on 18 tee, then play the 17th hole.  It eliminates walking back up a hill to the tee.  When you have little acres I think its a cool solution to a routing problem. 

[Scott Warren]

I played a course in Northern Michigan this summer called Harbor Pointe.  You walk past the 18th tee to get to the 17th tee a par 3.  You then walk back to the 18th tee up a hill from 17 green.  I asked a friend and he replied, after the 16th hole, you hit your tee shot on 18 tee, then play the 17th hole.  It eliminates walking back up a hill to the tee.  When you have little acres I think its a cool solution to a routing problem.

Really? I think that's a fundamental acknowledgement that the routing is fatally flawed.

[Chris Roselle]

I played a course in Northern Michigan this summer called Harbor Pointe.  You walk past the 18th tee to get to the 17th tee a par 3.  You then walk back to the 18th tee up a hill from 17 green.  I asked a friend and he replied, after the 16th hole, you hit your tee shot on 18 tee, then play the 17th hole.  It eliminates walking back up a hill to the tee.  When you have little acres I think its a cool solution to a routing problem.

Really? I think that's a fundamental acknowledgement that the routing is fatally flawed.

It also think the Rules of Golf might have some unfortunate news for you as well...

[Garland Bayley]

I played a course in Northern Michigan this summer called Harbor Pointe.  You walk past the 18th tee to get to the 17th tee a par 3.  You then walk back to the 18th tee up a hill from 17 green.  I asked a friend and he replied, after the 16th hole, you hit your tee shot on 18 tee, then play the 17th hole.  It eliminates walking back up a hill to the tee.  When you have little acres I think its a cool solution to a routing problem.

Really? I think that's a fundamental acknowledgement that the routing is fatally flawed.

It also think the Rules of Golf might have some unfortunate news for you as well...

Chris,


Are you a government bureaucrat? 

[Garland Bayley]

I played a course in Northern Michigan this summer called Harbor Pointe.  You walk past the 18th tee to get to the 17th tee a par 3.  You then walk back to the 18th tee up a hill from 17 green.  I asked a friend and he replied, after the 16th hole, you hit your tee shot on 18 tee, then play the 17th hole.  It eliminates walking back up a hill to the tee.  When you have little acres I think its a cool solution to a routing problem.

Really? I think that's a fundamental acknowledgement that the routing is fatally flawed.

If you don't know the property, and its acreage limitation, it is hard to draw any informed opinion.

[Kyle Harris]

*sigh*

This conversation always makes me die a little inside.

Bad assumption 1:

If Par 3s are the slowest to play then courses consisting entirely of them would be the slowest to play.

Bad assumption 2:

Half-par holes slow down play, so we'll speed up play by moving the tees back and forcing groups to hit more shots.

There is pace-of-play or the speed at which the game is played. Then there is capacity or the amount of groups that can safely play any given hole or course. The above two examples are cases where you are increasing the capacity of the golf course, not necessarily speeding up play.

Opening with a half-shot hole is a way to spread groups out relative to one another. Check your home course and you'll find the Par 3 that backs up the most is usually the one following the hole that can accommodate the most groups at once like a long Par-5 which can conceivably have four groups on it. Perhaps one of the reasons that long walks between greens and tees can work is the effectively add some capacity to the golf course and force the rhythm to feel smoother. Golf feels faster if you're moving.

[Mike Bodo]

I played a course in Northern Michigan this summer called Harbor Pointe.  You walk past the 18th tee to get to the 17th tee a par 3.  You then walk back to the 18th tee up a hill from 17 green.  I asked a friend and he replied, after the 16th hole, you hit your tee shot on 18 tee, then play the 17th hole.  It eliminates walking back up a hill to the tee.  When you have little acres I think its a cool solution to a routing problem.

My mom and step-father live across the street from Harbor Pointe golf club. I played the course for the first time this summer with my step-dad, brother and head pro, Sean Bezilla, who my brother worked under for years at Little Traverse Bay Golf Club (an outstanding track, BTW). I know exactly what you are referencing in regards to holes 17 and 18. It's crazy they way it's laid out, but that really is the correct way to play them. Hole no.'s 3 and 4 at Ann Arbor Golf and Outing are somewhat the same in that regard.

[Tom_Doak]

Perhaps one of the reasons that long walks between greens and tees can work is the effectively add some capacity to the golf course and force the rhythm to feel smoother. Golf feels faster if you're moving.

Ain't that the truth.  The people who amaze me are the ones who wait on the tee, finally get to hit their drives, jump in the cart, and race up to their balls in the fairway so they can complain about waiting on the same group in front of them, who are still on the green.  If they'd just walked to their tee shots, the green might be clear by the time they got there.

[MCirba]

Some really good thoughts you guys and I definitely appreciate the sentiment that as long as you're moving the pace feels quicker. I also like some of the walking versus riding comparisons. From my perspective the only time riding is faster is if there's absolutely no one ahead of you or if the gaps between greens and tees are so long as to make the walk excessive.

[Joe Bausch]

Perhaps one of the reasons that long walks between greens and tees can work is the effectively add some capacity to the golf course and force the rhythm to feel smoother. Golf feels faster if you're moving.

Ain't that the truth.  The people who amaze me are the ones who wait on the tee, finally get to hit their drives, jump in the cart, and race up to their balls in the fairway so they can complain about waiting on the same group in front of them, who are still on the green.  If they'd just walked to their tee shots, the green might be clear by the time they got there.

They would complain even more but for the fact the delay provides a good time to grab another beer from the cooler.   

[Chris Roselle]

I played a course in Northern Michigan this summer called Harbor Pointe.  You walk past the 18th tee to get to the 17th tee a par 3.  You then walk back to the 18th tee up a hill from 17 green.  I asked a friend and he replied, after the 16th hole, you hit your tee shot on 18 tee, then play the 17th hole.  It eliminates walking back up a hill to the tee.  When you have little acres I think its a cool solution to a routing problem.

Really? I think that's a fundamental acknowledgement that the routing is fatally flawed.

It also think the Rules of Golf might have some unfortunate news for you as well...

Chris,


Are you a government bureaucrat? 

No, but I do work in Golf Administration so I would say that's close enough...
And the funny thing about it is it is the very 1st decision in the Decision Book

1-1/1 Two Balls in Play Simultaneously at Different Holes 

Q. Two players on the 8th hole play their approach shots to the 8th green. They agree to tee off at the 9th hole and then putt out on the 8th green. This is to avoid having to walk back up a hill to the 9th tee and to save time. What is the ruling?


A. In match play, the players are disqualified under Rule 1-3 for excluding the operation of Rule 2-1 by failing to play the stipulated round, provided the players knew that this was a breach of the Rules. If they did not know that their action was a breach of the Rules, both holes stand as played.


In stroke play, the competitors are disqualified under Rule 3-2 for failing to hole out on the 8th hole before making a stroke from the 9th tee.

[Kalen Braley]

I tend to agree with Mike on this one concerning carts.  You don't really save any time, because more often than not, you have to park the cart somewhere away from the green.  So by the time you walk back to your cart, in a direction not towards the next tee, put away your clubs, get in and drive to the next tee, there is no real time savings over those who just grab thier bags and go straight to it.


Only on holes where the walk is 100+ yards to the next tee could you possibly save a little time.


P.S.  Sometimes riding can make things less frustrating.  For example, if play is slow, when you get to the tee, you can hang out near the cart, chit chat about something....instead of standing on the next tee with club in hand and getting even more frustrated about the slow play.

[Sven Nilsen]

Olympia Fields North has the same situation as Harbor Pointe with the 6th and 7th holes.  Groups will often play their tee shot on 6, walk sideways to the 7th tee and hit a drive, finish play on the 6th and then walk off the back of the 6th to their drives in the 7th fairway.  Seems to work pretty well getting groups through that part of the course on a busy weekend morning.


As for the flow on Pac Dunes, I find its more of a group by group situation than anything having to do with the course.  You'll end up waiting when the group in front of you slows down, which can happen pretty easily on a few holes.  So if a bunch of stronger players are chasing some weaker players, they are most likely going to wait a bit.  There are rounds where it seems like you're waiting every hole, just as there are rounds where it seems like the entire course is moving on pace.


That being said, play does slow down a bit on the par 3's.  There can be a wait on 5, 10 and 17.  Usually you don't wait much on 11, as the back to back flow means you're pretty much walking on to the tee when the group in front is leaving the green.  Maybe its that people tend to take their time on 13 (whether due to difficulty or soaking in the view), but there's never really much of a backup on 14.  You can almost guarantee you'll wait on 17, as the short nature of 16 and the difficulty of the 17th often create a delay.  There's probably an interesting case study to be done comparing the flow at 16/17 at Pac with 4/5 at Old Mac.


There are also spots on the par 4's where you might have to wait if the wind is blowing in the right direction to make them drivable (6 and 16 particularly).  The same applies to 8 at Trails and 16 at Bandon, and sometimes 13 and 14 at Old Mac.

[Tom_Doak]

 Maybe its that people tend to take their time on 13 (whether due to difficulty or soaking in the view), but there's never really much of a backup on 14.  You can almost guarantee you'll wait on 17, as the short nature of 16 and the difficulty of the 17th often create a delay. 

I'd guess the reason for the lack of delays at 14 is the relatively long walk from 13 green back to 14 tee ... the group in front of you is playing that hole the whole time you've finishing up on 13 and walking back to the tee.  That's actually a great example of where a long walk between holes makes for a BETTER golf experience.

[Sven Nilsen]

Tom:


Even you should know that not many groups play 14 that quickly.


Sven

[James Brown]

Tom:


Even you should know that not many groups play 14 that quickly.


Sven

This has got me wondering if anyone has any data from Bandon on place of play? 

[Kalen Braley]

I'd volunteer for something like that.  Will work for free provided basic room and board, and the occasional golf privileges!